KESO 3000 KESO 4000

[ARF-GEF]

1. Does anyone have any information on KESO 3000? It seems to be only available in Switzerland so they are extremely hard to find where I live at. All the infos I was able to find is that it has a special rhomboid shaped key and closed key canal (? not wure exactly what that means the original is in german: geschlossenen Schlüsselkanälen).
I know infortmation on how to pick them is restriced to the advanced forums, so I'm just curious what are they actually, so any detail or oppinion is welcome:).

2. On Keso 4000 omega I can provide some information, but the picture is not full yet (so any adittional information is very much welcome here too:) ) and I have found no information about it on this forum, so hopefully this will be of some help to someone sometime.

It seems to pretty high security lock,hard to pick or circumvent in any way (please correct me if I'm wrong), very much like 2000 omega. I have not yet tried to pick a 2000 omega, since they are prettty rare where I live, and way above my skill level anyways, but I heard they are a formidable lock, based on what I know, I would even recommend it to use as a front door lock (again correct me if I'm mistaken) (I have no affilation with KESO in any way, and this is admittedly only my oppinion).
As far as I understand the only changes made are really basic in the shape of the keys to achive additional years of patent protection, with some more variation in drilling patterns, and a modified baseline shift(?) .
If you are considering to buy one (either keso 2000 omega or 4000) (either for use as a lock or for fun/picking etc.) it is probably useful to know that 4000s is actually cheaper than 2000s omega. Although I have no idea why since they don't really seem to be inferior to 2000-s in any way.

3. The third part is: I have seen several accounts of these locks being opened with impressining/foils. Though I'm aware that details belong to the advanced forums, are they truly so easy to open that way?

[ARF-GEF]

Oh and a few thigns I forgot to add (If a moderator stumbles on this thead, could he please unite these 2 posts? and could he please rename the thread to include KESO's american name: Sargent KESO? Thank you very much.)

Keso states that: On Sargent keso / keso 4000s omega "There is now three series of up to 5 active tumbler pin pairs, which can be arranged at 13 positions not realyl sure, whether that's a advance from keso 2000s.

[Squelchtone]

Hi,

You mentioned a couple times not being able to get these locks where you live. Where exactly is that? A lot of us can get locks online pretty easily, even if that brand or model isnt stocked by our local locksmith shops.

Please fill out your user profile and put in a city or state or country or whatever you're comfortable filling in.

ebay is a good source for locks, I've seen many Keso's on there both the Sargent variety and I've seen some of the the Omega locks on there as well.

Squelchtone

[ARF-GEF]

Hey Squelchtone,

Thanks for the advice! I live in eastern europe in Hungary, and many sites, especially those from the us, do not ship to us. Even if they do shipping costs and customs (if ordering outside from the EU) make the whole thing often rather expensive and cumbersome, (and though less fo an issue:slow).
I had trouble a few times getting even simple everyday gifts (like books) from the US, so I am ususally cautious.
But this is not such a big issue, there are plenty of interesting locks I can actually buy in stores or borrow from friends of the locksmith I kind of work at(or more like sort of help-in). I have yet to learn a lot about the basic stuff too, so getting special advanced locks is not an urgent either.
It's just that often the unreachable seems all the more tantalising and fascinating.

Though ebay works for us too, thanks for the reminder!

[kilae]

Hey,

1. About the KESO 3000. You don't found much information about this lock. I tell you it's a new Version from the KESO 1000S. With 15 Pins in one half. (5 x 3 alignments).
And 12 diff. kind of pins.
And this System is primary for the Swiss market.
Information paper (only in german): http://www.keso.com/Other/KESO/Downloads/KESO_3000_Premium_d.pdf

2. The KESO 4000. I think you know the most things about it. mod baseline shift, etc...
Information paper: http://www.assaabloy.ch/Other/KESO/Downloads/108_KESO_4000_e.pdf

3. We tested, last year, impressining and foil impressining with a KESO 3000 (I think).
But it doesen't work. It has new pins inside to fend this attacks.

Not much but...

[ARF-GEF]

Hi kiliae,

Thanks a lot for the infos,especially for the pdf-s!
KESO 10RS also looks like having the same specifications as 3000 (with one less pin though). To be perfectly honest I do not see all that such a great difference between 1000 and 3000. Well that not quite right the bridge seems to be different, with a sandwich style bridge as a basic option and steel as an extra for 1000s while 3000s has a steel bridge as standard. But mechanically, all the Keso locks seem to be the same, don't they?

Also I don't quite get, what's the point in having a rhomboid key instead of a simple flat one apart from being harder to copy. If someone has a view on that I would be glad to hear it .

[ARF-GEF]

By the way:
Did anyone had the chance to compare any of these KESO-s against KABA locks? Escpecially Kaba star or Kaba gemini?
For example Kaba 20 has a lot more pins that even the top of their line KESO 4000s, but most people I talked to hold Kabas inferior to Kesos. I mean the omega is a a rather big step forward, but Kaba star has 26 pins in 8 rows vs 15 in keso.

[ARF-GEF]

So I got a Keso 4000 which I can play with. It has been quite some time since I set my eyes on them but it took some time to get to know them. (And will try to get a Kaba gemini for comparison too.)
I'm not sure whether or not the following violates the rules or not. I did not write anything on how top open or pick them, but I'm still not sure whether it's allowed. Hopefully admins will let it though.

So for future reference about KESO locks:
For those who are not at all familiar with this kind of lock they are dimple locks with 3 line of pins. (from the 2 sides and one on the edge of the blade.)
The Keso 3000 -1000 family can be easily differentiated from the 2000-4000 line: The uneven thousands have a rhomboid shaped key.
The 2 sides are symmetrical the key can be with both sides "up" but for me it seems the pins on the opposite sides do not "test" for the same dimple.
One of the things which is already clear is that the KESO has a few different kinds of pins. The lock I taken apart had 5 different kinds. It's funny though: the key's dimple cuts are pretty much all the same. There are a few which telescoping pins like the Mul-t-locks, but for me it seems there are single pins shaped like a telescoping one too.
Another thing is that the key's cut are interlocking. Which means two dimples are meeting each other.
One point to keep in mind is that the key has lot more cuts than needed, probably to somewhat complicate copying but it's surely primarily for master keyed systems. As far as I know the unneeded cuts are made locally not in the main factory.
The interesting part is the floating interactive pin in the tip of the key.This is called the omega pin. It works by pushing the corresponding pin in the lock with just the right amount of force. Notice that the interactive pins in the key might be pressed inside the key. It's not really that complicated basically 2 moving pins with a spring in between them. I'm not sure whether there is a difference in spring strength,but otherwise it wouldn't really make too much sense. (If my description didn't make it clear to you you should check out Keso's homepage which has a really good picture. Look for the part describing the omega function.
Another nice feature is that where the key's blade meets the bow right where it begins to get broader. I'm not sure what is the English terminology for that so let's call it collar. This key's collar has a step like a broader shoulder which is thinner than the rest of the key at the top and at the bottom. This part never goes inside the keyway but instead meets the lock's outer surface right above and below the keyway. The lock's face has a corresponding longitudinal groove in which this thinner part can fit in. An ordinary key could not fit in since it's too broad and it couldn't get in deep enough. Also if you try to manually make a key thinner I think it would severely weaken the key.I made a somewhat clumsy attempt to bump it which resulted in a broken key. Though it might simply be because I'm not well practised in this. So impressioning didn't worked out for me.
A few things stuck me as nice features: The lock is very precisely made. The tolerances are very tight, everything fits neatly together.
The pins are made of very high quality steel, not even in the same league as brass. I have no scientific equipment to test them but they are extremely hard.

This lock was one I really liked. AS I slowly gathered infos about it the blind love went away, I can see a few possible problems with it, but I still hold this lock dear.


I'm ridiculously bad in picking as of now, and also I'm not sure whether it's for the open forums: so even if I really wanted I could not give any good advice: all I say to pickers is that I found the springs a lot stronger than the usual ones.
I will also upload photos once I figure out how.
I'm looking forward to getting my hands on Kaba-s. I expect them to be very nice locks too, but I'm very curious about the differences.

[dicey]

Interesting information in the systems really!

I have rarely seen the 3000 but the 2000 and 4000 is very common here in Germany.

[ARF-GEF]

I've heard that they are very popular in Germany. Here in eastern Europe they are not as common, probably due to the price..As kiliae pointed out the 3000 are only available in the Swiss market currently. So that's why you don't see them. Unless,of course, you are Swiss.

So it seems I have to amend my previous post.
First of all I've made a mistake: there are actually no telescopic pins in the Keso locks. The point of having a telesoping-looking-dimple is the possibility for masker keying. The pin which has a step in it (looks like a telescoping one but isn't) will fit into simple conical dimples (and thus open the lock). However simple conical pins won't fit into stepped, telescoping-looking dimple (and so won't open that lock). So it's possible that the boss can enter your office but you can't enter his.
They do not always contain 15 pins, they can contain anything between 10-15.
I've found it in some brochure that the actual hardness of the pins is 62 HRC. Which is a lot if you consider that the standard requires the special plates defending a safes locking mechanism to be 60 HRC. (Even high security safe specifications call for 60 or above.)
They do contain spool shaped driver pins and key pins with grove in them which I guess frustrate picking attempts to some extent.
And by the way what I wrote above is prett ymuch true for all kesos. There is not really that much of a difference between the models.(From the picking point of view that is.) Maybe the omega option.

I hope these posts help someone sometime in the future, because I've found that KESO-s are not so easy to get infos about (compared to EVVA-s or Abloys e.g.).