Help with a 1,9,2,3 bitting Brinks

[NovElite]

Hi, new to this site so I hope someone can help me with this lock that has been giving me so much grief. I would consider myself as more than a novice but less than truly experienced in lockpicking so somewhere in the middle is where I would measure my skill level to be. Have acquired many max security Brinks locks, which through my experience are a joke in the terms of max security. Until I bought one of their rounded 4 pin locks. Sorry in advance, I know rounded is not the accurate term for these. Spent many hours at this lock with no results, looked at the key to find out that it has a 1923 bitting. Pretty sure this is outside the norm of MACS. The pin springs in this are impressively strong. Looked around the Internet for some advice, tried adding much more tension as many people suggested, but still no progress. My question would be is this lock just extremely out of my realm of experience, or did I just get a very unlucky key bitting. Any advice on dealing with this lock or similar experience would be greatly appreciated.

[Altashot]

If 1,9,2,3 is indeed the bitting, it does seem to break the macs rule. It can be difficult to set the 2 behind the 9 but it is doable. I would try to pick the pins starting at the back of the cylinder and work my way to the front. Good luck.

M.

[GWiens2001]

When you looked at the key to determine the bitting, did you check the bits themselves with a key gauge or micrometer, or did you see a code on the key? If it is a code on the key, it may not directly show the bitting numbers, but instead needs to be checked with a cross-reference book to determine the true bitting of the key. Do the key cuts roughly match the code?

Gordon

[NovElite]

Yes the bitting matches up with 1923 printed on the key, I have also studied key impression and after doing a few wiggle and rotate techniques I can clearly see that the pin marks stay true to the bitting code.

[lockr]

If 1,9,2,3 is indeed the bitting, it does seem to break the macs rule. It can be difficult to set the 2 behind the 9 but it is doable.

Wouldn't that imply a MACs of 7? I believe this is also what Schlage specifies so I don't think it's that uncommon.

[Darkness1569]

Are you talking about the Brinks R70 Disc lock?
If you are then, When I first started out picking I bought one of these locks about 2 months into my lock picking. This lock gave me days of not so fun hand cramps trying to figure the tension out on it. I would give the tension required on this lock to be a upper medium to medium heavy tension and there is a very fine line between too much and too little tension. This lock can sure be a hard lock to figure out what it wants. After hours of trying to SPP it, I would get frustrated and just rake it open to prove that it can be opened.

As for the MAC, It uses a M1 keyway and I don’t know what the MAC is for that so I only say what keyway it is so someone that knows what a M1 keyway is can tell you, if they didn’t know this lock uses the M1 keyway.

The code on my key and the real biting numbers are different. The code on the key is 1519 but the biting is 7945.

If you are not talking about the R70 Disc lock then disregard this entire post.

[Altashot]

If 1,9,2,3 is indeed the bitting, it does seem to break the macs rule. It can be difficult to set the 2 behind the 9 but it is doable.

Wouldn't that imply a MACs of 7? I believe this is also what Schlage specifies so I don't think it's that uncommon.

1 to 9 is 8. 8 in most case is beyond macs. It is not uncommon to see that rule broken. That would mean that the 1 before the 9 is removed and the 1 pin sits on the ramp. The 2 after it just comes to a point without a flat. These keys don't normally work for very long, a little bit of wear and they quit. I don't know why manufactures sometimes don't even follow their own rules but it happens.

M.

[Squelchtone]

Hi, new to this site so I hope someone can help me with this lock that has been giving me so much grief. I would consider myself as more than a novice but less than truly experienced in lockpicking so somewhere in the middle is where I would measure my skill level to be. Have acquired many max security Brinks locks, which through my experience are a joke in the terms of max security. Until I bought one of their rounded 4 pin locks. Sorry in advance, I know rounded is not the accurate term for these. Spent many hours at this lock with no results, looked at the key to find out that it has a 1923 bitting. Pretty sure this is outside the norm of MACS. The pin springs in this are impressively strong. Looked around the Internet for some advice, tried adding much more tension as many people suggested, but still no progress. My question would be is this lock just extremely out of my realm of experience, or did I just get a very unlucky key bitting. Any advice on dealing with this lock or similar experience would be greatly appreciated.

Would you please post a photo of the lock and key next to each other, there's just too much speculation going on, so we can't give you a clear answer. Upload it here: http://tinypic.com and then paste the link in your reply on the forum.

Thank you,
Squelchtone

[lockr]

1 to 9 is 8.

Gah, I really shouldn't respond to posts without adequate sleep =) I was looking a 9-2 and for some reason my brain didn't register 1-9. Bleah..

Anyway yeah sorry, I agree with you, I'm not aware of any manufacturer that permits a MAC of 8.

[easy-e]

Hi, new to this site so I hope someone can help me with this lock that has been giving me so much grief. I would consider myself as more than a novice but less than truly experienced in lockpicking so somewhere in the middle is where I would measure my skill level to be.

Welcome to the site!

My question would be is this lock just extremely out of my realm of experience, or did I just get a very unlucky key bitting. Any advice on dealing with this lock or similar experience would be greatly appreciated.

It's just something you have to get used to. I find a lot of locks with a 8 or a 9 cut on the first or second pin stack which makes the rest of the pins behind them difficult to get to. I bought a Peterson DCAP Hook (Deep Cut Access Pick) which is slimmer but I've had some locks where I still didn't feel like I could get certain pins high enough without over setting others. I had to refine my technique but I did eventually get those locks open. I don't have any tall hooks but I'm going to get some soon. I try to do as much with the tools I have until I come across a situation that requires something special. I'm a tool buying addict but I'm trying to pace myself

[NovElite]

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=rkpxmv&s=6

[NovElite]

Thank you for the help and advice everyone. Think I have the tension down, getting false sets which is more progress than I had before. I'll get it soon im sure, just taking awhile to learn this particular lock and type. Inverted keyway is a bit of an annoyance but easy enough to get use to.

[Squelchtone]

That code is definitely not your direct bitting. You have a 0 cut at the tip and a deep cut by the shoulder stop and a couple number 1 or 2 cuts in the middle. I don't know Brinks depth and spacing but its more of a 5 1 1 0 where 5 is that deep valley after the shoulder.

Still tricky to pick as you cannot lift the first pin and must sneak under it and then up to pick the remaining 3.
Squelchtone

[Darkness1569]

Have you tried to tension it from the top of the keyway to help get under that first pin without hitting it?

[NovElite]

Thanks again for all the input on this lock. I like to pick locks as they would appear in the field, so with this one which has an inverted keyway, all picking is in a downwards motion. Which is a bit different but easy to get use to. Have tried all tension tools in my arsenal and top and bottom techniques. The most progress I have had with this is finding a huge design flaw of a poorly placed drain hole directly behind the pins on the back of the lock. Well not directly behind, they are slightly to the left when looking through the back, but as I found easily able to reach with a low profile pick. So I can actually set the pins in the back so I can bypass the first pin then come back to it. Only issue is turning the lock or switching back to the front while keeping perfect tension. Will add a picture. But I feel like im close, not sure everyones opinion on not being able to pick this traditionaly, but having to use a bit of a design flaw by picking through a drain hole, but I just want to crack this thing.