Lock Picking 101 Forum
A community dedicated to the fun and ethical hobby of lock picking.
       

Lock Picking 101 Home
Login
Profile
Members
Forum Rules
Frequent Forum Questions
SEARCH
View New Posts
View Active Topics


Live Chat on Discord
LP101 Forum Chat
Keypicking Forum Chat
Reddit r/lockpicking Chat



Learn How to Pick Locks
FAQs & General Questions
Got Beginner Questions?
Pick-Fu [Intermediate Level]


Ask a Locksmith
This Old Lock
This Old Safe
What Lock Should I Buy?



Hardware
Locks
Lock Patents
Lock Picks
Lock Bumping
Lock Impressioning
Lock Pick Guns, Snappers
European Locks & Picks
The Machine Shop
The Open Source Lock
Handcuffs


Member Spotlight
Member Introductions
Member Lock Collections
Member Social Media


Off Topic
General Chatter
Other Puzzles


Locksmith Business Info
Training & Licensing
Running a Business
Keyways & Key Blanks
Key Machines
Master Keyed Systems
Closers and Crash Bars
Life Safety Compliance
Electronic Locks & Access
Locksmith Supplies
Locksmith Lounge


Buy Sell Trade
Buy - Sell - Trade
It came from Ebay!


Advanced Topics
Membership Information
Special Access Required:
High Security Locks
Vending Locks
Advanced Lock Pick Tools
Bypass Techniques
Safes & Safe Locks
Automotive Entry & Tools
Advanced Buy/Sell/Trade


Locksport Groups
Locksport Local
Chapter President's Office
Locksport Board Room
 

Online SFIC Business

This is the old Locksmith business info area and will be broken down to fill in the new sections below.

Online SFIC Business

Postby manualf150 » 6 Jan 2013 14:13

Since I've been messing around with nothing but IC cores, and doing tons of reading, practicing, and more practicing, I've found myself interested in these things. Weird, I know. But I like helping folks out and doing it for cheap, and I've found myself playing with cores more than watching TV lately -- which is a good thing, really.

Anyhow, I've noticed that there seems to be a large market for SFIC, especially on eBay. Especially Best cores, but generics too, like GMS, KSP, etc. I know that Tim Monte does a lot of business on eBay, and there used to be a guy named Jeff (formerly bestlocksandmore), but he passed away this past summer. By the way, Jeff, RIP -- he was another very nice person. Now there's only Tim. Then you got weirdos selling generics for like 3 A section cores for $40 bucks -- rip off, tell me about it. There is one that is selling a lot of 25 cores, and took a picture of the pinning list, like, how unsecure is that?!Tim IS the only reasonable seller on eBay, not to mention trustworthy, plus he knows his stuff.

Now, I don't want to take business away from Tim, but on the other hand, I'd like to keep myself busy and helping folks out. I'm not in it to make money, as I've got a primary full time job that pays enough. I just want to do it for the fun and to keep myself occupied with something that people will enjoy. Not too often heard, right? Well, like I said, I just want to do it because I've got the tools, the know how, and the time; again, not to rip people off or to make money. If I make spare change on the side, then fine, but I'm not looking to make a living off of it.

To the point; I usually go thru Icorelocks.com to get my cores, sometimes Tim, CLK supplies. I've used Key Craze and CLK to get my blanks, and if I want BEST Original blanks, I go thru eBay. I find that I have no issues getting cores, blanks, springs, and caps -- eventually. Even if I still need original BEST cores, I can get them. But here's my question... I am wondering if I should just buy cores and pin them up and sell them on eBay in say individuals, or should I do lots of already pinned? Or should I offer what Tim does, and have them email me what they want?

What I'm afraid of too is lead times. I've done a couple jobs for some friends, and one wanted a certain keyway, and it wound up taking me like a month to get like 10 cores. Of course he was patient, but not everyone is like that. That's why I'm thinking of just getting a couple common keyways, like stock 5 of A, D, J, L, M, and maybe Q and if someone needs more than that, just order them as needed and let them know there will be a backorder on them. Right now, I have every single Best keyway in stock, except for some of the T sections and the W sections. But not all in Best, some in Best and some in Generics. Which is kind of cool. Not to mention, I've got pins for A2, A3, and A4 systems, along with the blanks, and the codebars for my Bluepunch.

I guess, what it is, I don't want to offer something and A) Not have it in stock or B) Not be able to get it, and possibly C) Taking forever to get the supplies.

Anyone have some kind suggestions? I'd appreciate it.
manualf150
 
Posts: 13
Joined: 19 Apr 2011 20:10

Re: Online SFIC Business

Postby jeffmoss26 » 6 Jan 2013 19:29

I've dealt with Tim for several years now. Personally I am never in a hurry since these are just locks I collect/trade, so if I have to wait for parts, it's not usually a huge deal.
I have also sent my cores and blanks to people on the various forums and had them decode and cut keys for me.
I think it really depends what you want to do with this, as a business.
"I tried smoking a blank once. I was never able to keep the tip lit long enough to inhale." - ltdbjd
jeffmoss26
 
Posts: 1090
Joined: 13 Jan 2012 15:01
Location: Cleveland, OH

Re: Online SFIC Business

Postby manualf150 » 6 Jan 2013 22:05

jeffmoss26 wrote:I've dealt with Tim for several years now. Personally I am never in a hurry since these are just locks I collect/trade, so if I have to wait for parts, it's not usually a huge deal.
I have also sent my cores and blanks to people on the various forums and had them decode and cut keys for me.
I think it really depends what you want to do with this, as a business.


I don't know if I want to get into decoding, drilling, etc. One of the reasons is that I feel this way is because of the nature of these particular locks. Generally found in schools, gov't locations, etc. I don't want someone to send me in a core saying it's theirs, and then I punch keys and next thing I know something bad turns up.

I really just want to supply combinated and uncombinated cores with cut keys if needed for a reasonable price, in an easy to get fashion. I've yet to see a site, other than CLK selling uncombinated cores, but they only sell 6 pin on their site, and to get 7 pin, you need to call or email. Not sure why either, I've never thought to ask. Maybe I ought to ask the next time I place an order.

But on the other hand, I find decoding cores fun! Some of the used ones I've bought off eBay, had some pretty interesting pinning jobs, making me think the only reason why they were getting rid of the cores was because they didn't work right and didn't have the know how/tools or time to repin them correctly or quite possibly try to evade someone from decoding them.

I guess what I'm trying to get at is, I want to offer an easy way for people to get pinned cores without a bunch of trouble, and of course still saving them money. I suppose you are right, they are only locks. I mean how urgent could it be? I guess if someone needed cores in an emergency, and I had a few, I could do the order then direct them to someone else (like Tim) who might have what they need. That might be a good approach.

Like I said earlier, I don't want to under cut Tim either, but just be another resource for people.
manualf150
 
Posts: 13
Joined: 19 Apr 2011 20:10

Re: Online SFIC Business

Postby kaelanh » 6 Jan 2013 23:54

Tim is great to deal with. Another person I would point you to to order uncombinated cores or Best original stuff is a guy named Randy Main. His website is http://www.iccores.com/ he doesn't do computers real well, so it is best to call him to place an order. He has tons of best original stuff and sells recycled original cores for $5 each, sometimes he will do a "deal price" and give you say, a different finish that he has tons of stock of, and the price will be even cheaper. My main thing is Best IC cores. I pin them, decode control keys, and some other stuff. It's actually fun to me for some odd reason. I have a pin chart calculator I can email to you if you want it. Just PM me your email address. That goes for everybody else too, and feel free to share it outside of LP101.
kaelanh
 
Posts: 17
Joined: 2 Jul 2011 22:54

Re: Online SFIC Business

Postby Capt_Tom » 7 Jan 2013 8:22

You want to help people......I understand your interest and SOME of your motivation. If you are going to do it commercially, do it well and do it reasonably priced. DON'T DO IT CHEAP! I am just getting started with that portion of my business. The use of IC cores in itself a need. As you mentioned schools, hospitals, and other facilities use them frequently. If someone wants to install IC cores on their business (or home for that matter) they can expect to pay more for the equipment and benefit of changing their locks at a moments notice. When I or another locksmith tries to sell an IC system and they can be found on the internet literally my at cost , it hurts my marketting and makes me look like a ripoff because I was quoting what the catalogue lists them at.. But it also hurt that customer who decided against the system. I wish you well, just be professional at what you do.
Capt_Tom
 
Posts: 169
Joined: 22 Sep 2012 7:56
Location: Conway/Myrtle Beach, S C

Re: Online SFIC Business

Postby jeffmoss26 » 7 Jan 2013 8:25

I've never dealt with Randy at iccores but always hear good things.
I will PM you for that pinning calculator, appreciate it!
"I tried smoking a blank once. I was never able to keep the tip lit long enough to inhale." - ltdbjd
jeffmoss26
 
Posts: 1090
Joined: 13 Jan 2012 15:01
Location: Cleveland, OH

Re: Online SFIC Business

Postby manualf150 » 7 Jan 2013 16:49

Capt_Tom wrote:You want to help people......I understand your interest and SOME of your motivation. If you are going to do it commercially, do it well and do it reasonably priced. DON'T DO IT CHEAP! I am just getting started with that portion of my business. The use of IC cores in itself a need. As you mentioned schools, hospitals, and other facilities use them frequently. If someone wants to install IC cores on their business (or home for that matter) they can expect to pay more for the equipment and benefit of changing their locks at a moments notice. When I or another locksmith tries to sell an IC system and they can be found on the internet literally my at cost , it hurts my marketting and makes me look like a ripoff because I was quoting what the catalogue lists them at.. But it also hurt that customer who decided against the system. I wish you well, just be professional at what you do.


Interesting take. I never thought of it like that. I do know what you mean... It's like I called this one shop, for uncombinated cores Arrow Pointe cores and they wanted like $26 and some change for them. I busted out laughing at the guy over the phone. And he didn't get it. But I then explained to him that I could find the same core for 1/2 the price without much work and he said he was just stating what the MSRP was out of the catalogue. Which I see, he has to make some money. But where do you draw the line? I bet he is getting those cores for say $12 if he does a huge order and keeps some on hand, just in case. So, he will turn around, charge the end user $26 for the core, then pinning/masterkeying services for $5 a core, jumping it to say $31, plus keys. So the business will be making some serious dough from the customer.

Again, I'm not in it for the money. I just enjoy sitting there and pinning cores, it's quite relaxing actually, as I love working on small things.

But I do take pride in what I do, or I wouldn't even venture into offering a service if I couldn't keep up the consistency.
manualf150
 
Posts: 13
Joined: 19 Apr 2011 20:10

Re: Online SFIC Business

Postby zeke79 » 7 Jan 2013 17:01

Even if he buys them at $12 and sells them for $26 what you are not seeing in this equation is the fact that he will sit on some of that stock for an unknown period of time, must pay for insurance, bonds, advertising, pay himself a salary, upgrade equipment, and have the ability to pay upfront for orders and wait for commercial customers to pay a month or so later. You are not looking at the whole picture at all. Undercutting someone elses lively hood just because you enjoy doing something is not helping the industry. I'm all for competitive pricing but I will not lose money to compete.

If you enjoy doing it, establish a competitive price and make some money for your time. I love putting together nutrition plans and body building and while I will point anyone in the right direction I will not put together a full plan for free no matter how much I enjoy it. My time and my work is worth something to me.
For the best book out there on high security locks and their operation, take a look at amazon.com for High-Security Mechanical Locks An Encyclopedic Reference. Written by our very own site member Greyman! A true 5 Star read!!
zeke79
Admin Emeritus
 
Posts: 5701
Joined: 1 Sep 2003 14:11
Location: USA

Re: Online SFIC Business

Postby maintenanceguy » 7 Jan 2013 17:06

I'm not sure you'll be happy doing this just to help out when you get your first customer complaint or someone wanting a refund or the PITA customer who sends 10 emails wanting to know why it's taking so long to get his order. And it will happen - it happens to every business.

It will be a hobby to you but it's a business transaction to everyone else. Charge enough that it's worth your time to provide great service if that's important to you.

I've said this here before but I believe that there are 3 things people want from a business. (1) Good quality products (2) Good Service, and (3) Low prices. I believe you can only provide 2. You can pick any two but you can't provide all three. Businesses have thrived providing a different two so there isn't a right answer but you should go into this knowing which two you're going to provide. I'm afraid you're hoping to go into this providing all 3.
-Ryan
Maintenanceguy
maintenanceguy
 
Posts: 349
Joined: 17 Feb 2007 14:05
Location: North East, USA

Re: Online SFIC Business

Postby Capt_Tom » 7 Jan 2013 19:16

Gross sale
minus Cost of goods
equals gross profit
minus (payroll, payroll taxes, advertisement, vehicle fuel, vehicle maintenance, rent, insurance,electrical bill, heating bill, water bill, phone bill, cell bill, city license,... etc.

I was trying to be nice.... But, When you called the locksmith and he quoted $26 and you laughed and said that he probably didn't get it ..... You evidently don't get it. Take an economics class. You might have a gross profit of 40 to 60 % on an item, but then your expenses will eat that away very quickly. If you can end up with 10% profit (before tax) you might be able to survive a couple of weeks....... But I forgot... you don't want to make a profit... just help people and have fun. If that is your outlook on life, leave the guys that are trying to make a living alone and just play the Ebay thing.

I will not sign this with a "screen name"

I AM: Tom Beckham
Waccamaw Safe & Lock
Capt_Tom
 
Posts: 169
Joined: 22 Sep 2012 7:56
Location: Conway/Myrtle Beach, S C

Re: Online SFIC Business

Postby manualf150 » 7 Jan 2013 21:21

I do understand that some people do make a living off of this trade. However, it is technically my business if I want to make or lose money off this skillset. The way I look at it, is I'm giving some a free ride. It's like me giving out money to someone every time I sell them a core, just for choosing me. Which to some, it sounds, well, rather weird. I know. Which is why I live in the good ole USA where I'm at free will to set my own price. Yes, I've taken economics classes. I understand why businesses need to make money. But the general markup on cores is insane for what they are (except for the patented or not widely popular sections). For cripes sake they are just locks. Like for example, a place built a new building, with around 160 doors. They needed about 190 cores. So they ordered 200 cores. Unfortunately they had a service contract with BEST. Even with special pricing as package deals with the handlesets and mortise assemblies, the cores came to be around $22 a pop for a regular section, not a patented section. Unfortunately, the money this place gets is from tax payers. Yes, us tax payers. So, yes, Stanley is getting probably not making much, if any with the pricing they are required to offer. However, being a free market, if enough people start setting lower prices, there will be a great amount of competition, and eventually prices of these products will go down. Maybe taxes will go down .01%. Who knows, you've got to start somewhere; and that goes for more than just locks, just look around.

Furthermore, with the amount of incivility happening around the world lately and unfortunately some of it in the US, if I can help someone get good quality locks and locksets in their home, business, church, or school, I feel like I'm doing my best at possibly saving a life, as long as it's installed correctly. Quality locksets shouldn't cost a lot to potentially save a life these days, and if anything the market sector for these types of (SFIC) locks are commercial/institutional grade, in which you won't find in any big box store. It makes me just want to go up to the CEO's of Schlage and Kwikset, and put them on the spot and ask them why they put the lives of so many people at risk with their products (like for example the Securekey from Schlage to the Smartkey from Kwikset).

In fact, I encourage the use of these types of locks, because they can be swapped out in an instant. I'd like to see a US LOCK or regular Medeco mortise cylinder be swapped out without tools. However, from the sounds of it around here, it might scare off customers trying to protect their little ones or their business just because they couldn't afford quality locksets; at least if I was a laymen coming into this, I would be sticker shocked. There's a price we all pay; but where's the limit? If I can help someone find a couple new BEST Grade 1 leversets and deadbolts for their house, and I can help them by leading them in the right direction and saving them a lot of money, I will, and I have. I've even helped others find others to reinforce their doorways, and make it all compatible and more secure. They always come back to me, and give me many thanks. To me, it's a satisfaction to see someone safe at home, or their business safe, etc; something that even money can't amount to.

To be quite honest, my initial questions had no bearing on pricing, but more on what to offer. But it is nice to see some others thoughts/reactions on this as it gives me a sense on what I should charge nominally as it is truly appreciated.
manualf150
 
Posts: 13
Joined: 19 Apr 2011 20:10

Re: Online SFIC Business

Postby zeke79 » 8 Jan 2013 0:41

When it comes to protecting my little ones I can tell you that I can shred a best in under a minute while a medeco, abloy, ul primus etc I can't. IC is convenience, not security.

And by your logic if everyone offered a price of free then I should do it too? No thanks jeff lol. I'll gladly stand in the cheese line and collect your tax dollars instead of busting my hump to not make ends meet.
For the best book out there on high security locks and their operation, take a look at amazon.com for High-Security Mechanical Locks An Encyclopedic Reference. Written by our very own site member Greyman! A true 5 Star read!!
zeke79
Admin Emeritus
 
Posts: 5701
Joined: 1 Sep 2003 14:11
Location: USA

Re: Online SFIC Business

Postby Capt_Tom » 8 Jan 2013 8:10

zeke79 wrote:When it comes to protecting my little ones I can tell you that I can shred a best in under a minute while a medeco, abloy, ul primus etc I can't. IC is convenience, not security.

And by your logic if everyone offered a price of free then I should do it too? No thanks jeff lol. I'll gladly stand in the cheese line and collect your tax dollars instead of busting my hump to not make ends meet.



Totally agree.... not much security... ... and Zeke... if you get into the free lock business... let me know.... I will give you some business ...LOL
Capt_Tom
 
Posts: 169
Joined: 22 Sep 2012 7:56
Location: Conway/Myrtle Beach, S C

Re: Online SFIC Business

Postby zeke79 » 9 Jan 2013 8:04

AWESOME!! How does 18% sound as a referral fee? :lol:
For the best book out there on high security locks and their operation, take a look at amazon.com for High-Security Mechanical Locks An Encyclopedic Reference. Written by our very own site member Greyman! A true 5 Star read!!
zeke79
Admin Emeritus
 
Posts: 5701
Joined: 1 Sep 2003 14:11
Location: USA

Re: Online SFIC Business

Postby femurat » 9 Jan 2013 9:58

I hope I understood what manualf150 is trying to do and I try to make an analogy.

Let's suppose that today I've already earned my salary. It's almost evening but since I like to play with metal bristles... I make a pick before dinner time.
It takes me one hour and a half. I enjoy the process, it's my hobby. Now I'm happy to sell it for a symbolic price, like 15 euro plus shipping, or to trade it for a nice lock.
I know that if I consider the cost of material, tools, electricity and everything my hourly pay is zero. But this is my hobby not my job.

What do you think? :roll:
User avatar
femurat
Site Admin
 
Posts: 3745
Joined: 22 Sep 2008 9:06
Location: Italy


Return to Locksmith Business Information Archive 2003-2014

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests