total possible key combinations

[1more]

Hey everyone,

I have a question to tickle your noggin. So I'm not much of a numbers cruncher and I was hoping somebody had this info maybe lying around, it's a long shot I know.

How many total key combinations are there for Kwickset, Schlage (basic models not Everest, Primus, etc) and if you know some of the old car models?

Obviously if there are only 10 pin heights and 5 pins, but I know for instance you would never have a key cut to 22222 or have a 0 cut next to a 9 cut, and I know car try out keys used to be much more common with locksmiths walking around with like 200 double cut keys for each year and model. I guess even if you just have the re-keying rules handy that would be helpful. Sorry if this has been answered some where, I did try a google search but if somebody remembers a thread from a few months ago I can try it again.

Any help would be greatly appreciated!!! Thank you!!!

Regards,
-Steve

[LockDocWa]

Off the top of my head I would say:
Kwikset 5 pin = 7,776
Kwikset 6 pin = 46,656
Schlage 5 pin = 10,000
Schlage 6 pin = 100,000
All of these include impossible MAC violations

[minifhncc]

Off the top of my head I would say:
Kwikset 5 pin = 7,776
Kwikset 6 pin = 46,656
Schlage 5 pin = 10,000
Schlage 6 pin = 100,000
All of these include impossible MAC violations

How on earth did you get those numbers?

Assuming 9 depths and 6 spaces, then the number of possible combinations, including MAC violations etc, would be 9^6 = 500,000 (approx)...

[keysman]

Off the top of my head I would say:
Kwikset 5 pin = 7,776
Kwikset 6 pin = 46,656
Schlage 5 pin = 10,000
Schlage 6 pin = 100,000
All of these include impossible MAC violations

How on earth did you get those numbers?

Assuming 9 depths and 6 spaces, then the number of possible combinations, including MAC violations etc, would be 9^6 = 500,000 (approx)...

Schlage has 10 depths ( 0-9) with a MAC of 7.
7^6 =117649 for a 6 pin
7^5=16807 for a 5 pin

[1more]

Thanks everyone this is super helpful!!!

[LockDocWa]

#1) I apologize if my arithmetic is lousy.
I was trying to say
10*10*10*10*10 = 100,000?
AND
10*10*10*10*10*10 = 1,000,000 ?

#2) Just because you shouldn't do it, doesn't mean you can't do it.

Here are a few photos of a Schlage key cut to 09090.
Using a Sargent cutter it can be accomplished, and the key works just fine.
Have I ever keyed a customers lock with a zero nine bitting?
No, but I know some other locksmiths that do it on a regular basis.







Anybody out there have an HPC1200 with this Sargent cutter that will back me up on this??

[Altashot]

I concur.
It shouldn't be done but just for fun, it can be done.
I've even seen original Schlage keys that had 0 next to a 9. I change those for a better bitting but, they work fine.
LockDocWa clearly demonstrated with his HPC 1200 that even a severe bitting like 09090 can work and CAN be done. He also cleverly used the 47 cutter The recommended 1011 cutter would only leave the 0 to a sharp point but I tried and it still works, not well though. It's not to Schlage specs here, but it's OK to play with the 1200. I love that machine, The combinations of cutters and the ability to make your own cards and your own choices with the 2 cranks are endless...

M.

[minifhncc]

Schlage has 10 depths ( 0-9) with a MAC of 7.
7^6 =117649 for a 6 pin
7^5=16807 for a 5 pin

I still think, with all due respect, that calculation is wrong.

It should be then 7^6 * (10-7+1) = 470596 for 6 pin, taking into consideration MAC.

[minifhncc]

I still think, with all due respect, that calculation is wrong.

It should be then 7^6 * (10-7+1) = 470596 for 6 pin, taking into consideration MAC.

Actually, this is still wrong. It's a crude estimate.

Why is it wrong? Well because, I suppose you could have a bitting like 157A21 (A=depth 10). In this case, the difference in depths between the 4th and 6th chambers is 9...

So obviously there are more combinations possible.

[LockDocWa]

minifhncc,
Schlage pin kits are zero to nine.
You could make a ten depth I suppose.
If you use the Sargent cutter on a six pin blank, would you not get a million possible keys?

Altashot,
The standard cutter for Schlage is the 14MC.
The 1011 is for smaller locks, like wafer and master padlock.


Here is your Schlage cutter.

[Altashot]

You are absolutely right LockDocWa, now that I can think clearly.
That should teach me to keep my mouth shut when I'm tired and...well.....inebriated.

M.

[LockDocWa]

Altashot: I'll drink to that!!

[minifhncc]

minifhncc,
Schlage pin kits are zero to nine.
You could make a ten depth I suppose.
If you use the Sargent cutter on a six pin blank, would you not get a million possible keys?

Sorry I'm not familiar with Sargant. I'm in Australia.

Altashot,
The standard cutter for Schlage is the 14MC.
The 1011 is for smaller locks, like wafer and master padlock.

Actually I think 1011 is used for Corbin too.

[jeffmoss26]

Very interesting!!

[LockDocWa]

minifhncc : Corbin disc / wafer or small pin basically cabinet keys use the 1011.
Corbin cylindrical / deadbolt or any large format key will use the 14MC.
If and when you get an HPC1200, all the info is on the cards.