Brinks 5-pin really only a 4-pin?

[Mikeh727]

I'm still pretty new at this but I've been progressing in my skills and was feeling especially confident one day after having consistently opened every 4-pin master lock I owned, plus a couple of cheaper no-name locks, so I purchased a Brinks 5-pin padlock to give a whirl.

I haven't been able to SPP this lock yet much to my frustration, but I am able to rake it fairly consistently. The thing is, when trying to SPP this thing, I can only feel FOUR pins, not five. I've placed my half-diamond in upside down and pressed the pins all the way into their chambers and slowly removed the pick, and I can only hear and feel four pins falling back into place. It seems that the fifth pin is missing. I'm even fairly certain that I can feel the empty pin chamber.

On top of that, here's a picture of the key. I only see where there would be four pins. The picture isn't perfect...at the end of the key where there is some glare, there is a very tiny notch on both keys, and I can see where that might support the fifth pin, but I can't feel it in the lock itself.

Like I said, I'm still a n00b, so I may be misinterpreting what I'm feeling, but I'm wondering if anyone else has run into this issue? I've searched the forums here and found that some of these that were supposed to have security pins had only standard pins, but I haven't seen anything where a pin was missing.



Thanks!

-M

[fgarci03]

Well, looking at the code of the key, that tiny notch is a 1 cut on that key.

Notice that the cuts match the biting of the key. The higher the number, bigger bitting.
So a 1 would be a small notch. Don't know about brinks, but usually a tiny tiny notch is a zero bitting, as they don't necessarily mean "uncut". Can you insert a long hook there? You can feel the chamber? Or just the place where the pin should be?

It can be a production error. No idea... I don't know those padlocks, so I can't be sure if it's usual.

Are you able to disassemble the padlock? You could check and post here your findings


Anyway, congratulations on your pickings!

[Mikeh727]

I'm pretty sure what I'm feeling is the empty chamber. Forgive my ignorance, but how does that differ from where the 'pin should be'? I don't feel a pin, I don't get any feedback from that position when I use a hook (which is not my strong suit), and I only hear four pins drop when I use the flat end of the half-diamond.

I'm almost certain that this is a manufacturing defect. The packaging said this was a five pin lock. Unfortunately, I live in the middle of nowhere and don't know of any other pickers near me who could confirm what I'm feeling. I was hoping someone else had come across this issue. I might go back and buy another one from the same store, assuming they are from the same production lot, and then get another one from a different source to compare.

Does Brinks produce a four pin lock? If so, I wonder if they use the same cylinder but simply don't install the fifth pin. Maybe mine was mislabeled. Either way, this is the first four pin lock that I still haven't been able to SPP. I'm hoping there are spool pins in there that I can't get past...otherwise I'm REALLY not doing it right!

Thanks Fgarci03. Always good to hear from you.

[Mikeh727]

Wait, I know what you mean. Do I feel an empty space or an actual chamber. I'm pretty sure I feel a chamber.

[fgarci03]

Forgive my ignorance, but how does that differ from where the 'pin should be'?

No ignorance. I mispelled.. AGAIN
Do you feel an open chamber? Or you feel a hard spot? Like no chamber, just plain metal.

If there really is a chamber it can be factory defect or mislabeled like you said.

To know if there are spools. The classic way is when you are picking and suddently the plug rotates a bit and then stops. You then need to go over the pins and lift them one by one with little tension. When you "hit" the spooled pin, the plug rotates a bit back untill it sets and rotates the right way again. That's why light tension. To allow it to rotates back, without reseting other pins.. If there are more than one spool, repeat the process untill it pops open.

Sometimes (and it only happens with really cheap, or heavily picked locks) the driver pins get deformed and get a spool shape (thinner in the middle). They feel and set like spools if the tension isn't light enough. There is no problem as you act like if they are spools, and they should be even easier than real spools to overcome. But it's funny to encounter them because my first time with those, I was ABSOLUTELY SURE the lock had spools. When I disassembled I was confused. Then I noticed the deformations on some pins and deduced this.

On really rare occasions, the deformation may take the shape of serrations. And those my friend, are nasty

Thanks Fgarci03. Always good to hear from you.

Don't say that. I may get cocky

[ARF-GEF]

One can definitely feel the hole for the missing pin with a hook pick. If you felt it once you won't miss it

Brinks usually makes decent locks, I have a limited scope on American made locks but my experience is that Brinks is better than master or American locks (especially since Master bought American).
(wow hard to refer to US made locks (American) and American locks made by American locks company) and avoid confusion. Best padlocks also took time to get used to.

It could be a production error but the reason why I think that's unlikely is that they had to leave the spring out too. A spring in an empty chamber will cause trouble as the bible turns. (learned that the hard way...)
Well it's still more likely that than they lie...
I'm not sure what it is! If there is an empty hole it's probably a productioen defect. But the key seem to be one for a 4 pinned lock (to me at least!)
I'd suggest to contact Brinks. And please write back here whaterver reply you get and whenever you get it!


My experience with Brinks padlocks is good I wouldn't think they are that bad quality:

driver pins get deformed and get a spool shape

I didn't knew about that... Thanks for the info!


BTW I always wanted to ask you Fgarci: does you name has anything to do with Federico Garcia Lorca? The moment I saw your name I thought that it's some kind of homage to him, but then I swiftly realised that he was Spanish and you are Portuguese.
Anyway I read a little bit of translated poetry of him. Good stuff. I don't agree with some things he said, but the verses how he said it are very nice.

[fgarci03]

driver pins get deformed and get a spool shape

I didn't knew about that...

It has happened to me on a couple of locks. Only on the cheap ones though...

BTW I always wanted to ask you Fgarci: does you name has anything to do with Federico Garcia Lorca? The moment I saw your name I thought that it's some kind of homage to him, but then I swiftly realised that he was Spanish and you are Portuguese.

Pure coincidence. My name is Filipe Garcia!

But you are right, although I'm Portuguese, I have two separate Spanish lineages converging with Portuguese, 5 generations ago. Garcia and Canossa. Luckily I didn't get the Canossa name. At least in Portugal it sounds really weird
So I still have some blood left from nuestros hermanos.

But although Garcia is a Spanish name, there are very old Portuguese generations with that name, who came to Portugal more than 500yrs ago!

[Mikeh727]

One can definitely feel the hole for the missing pin with a hook pick. If you felt it once you won't miss it

I'm pretty sure that is what I am feeling. Before I contact Brinks and get a 'canned' response from them, I think I'll seek out another picker or local locksmith to see what they feel. I'm new enough still that I might be way off on what I'm feeling, but I don't think so. I need a second opinion.

Felipe (if I may call you that now!), thanks for the info on the spool pins. Finding the right tension is something I'm still working on. I've decreased my tension DRAMATICALLY from when I started and have much better results, and I continue to refine my technique as I progress. Security pins of any sort are what I think of as 'advanced', and I'm not quite to that point yet, but if there are spool pins in this lock, I'm pretty happy that I got it open at all!

Don't say that. I may get cocky

We can all do that sometimes!

So in this thread we've got people from three countries on two continents discussing locks, Spanish poetry, and Portuguese history. How cool is that?

Thanks for the information guys. If I get an answer on this lock, I'll post it!

[ARF-GEF]

But you are right, although I'm Portuguese, I have two separate Spanish lineages converging with Portuguese, 5 generations ago. Garcia and Canossa. Luckily I didn't get the Canossa name. At least in Portugal it sounds really weird
So I still have some blood left from nuestros hermanos.

But although Garcia is a Spanish name, there are very old Portuguese generations with that name, who came to Portugal more than 500yrs ago!

Very interesting. Canoss has of course great historic relevance but I haven't heard it used as a name either.
I have to learn more about Spanish and Portuguese history. I know a few stuff but only from their blossoming periods.

So in this thread we've got people from three countries on two continents discussing locks, Spanish poetry, and Portuguese history. How cool is that?

That's something I love in forums like this. We should do this cultural mingling stuff more.

[Mikeh727]

That's something I love in forums like this. We should do this cultural mingling stuff more.

Not to mention the Buzz Lightyear reference in your signature....

[ARF-GEF]

Haha I'm glad someone noticed . I think it's a good motto in many parts of life

[Mikeh727]

Haha I'm glad someone noticed . I think it's a good motto in many parts of life

I absolutely agree with you. Mythical Far Eastern Europe, Middle America and Portugal aren't really that far apart, are they?

[ARF-GEF]

I didn't pay attention to it as a child, although it is catchy.
But I realised it's true potential resides in the beauty of it's being an oxymoron.

It's almost mantra like, roaring resounding phrase, yet it's nonsensical nature lies more or less subtly beneath.
I find it funny, thought provoking and inspiring at the same time . Perfect for a signature.



(I use it often in real life too: When someone sets an ridiculous unobtainable aim or behaves in an overly loud gung-ho fashion I tend to suddenly leap to my legs raise my clenched fist in the air and shout To infinity... and beyond!. It never ceases to be effective when you are surrounded by people who understand it, and it always brings people who fell overboard "back to earth". Funny for an astronaut's saying )

I absolutely agree with you. Mythical Far Eastern Europe, Middle America and Portugal aren't really that far apart, are they?

All mythical lands are neighbours and all their citizens are bothers to put it pathetically

[cledry]

I am surprised people think Brinks makes a better product than Master or American. We consider them an inexpensive import disposable lock.

[fgarci03]

Felipe (if I may call you that now!), thanks for the info on the spool pins. Finding the right tension is something I'm still working on. I've decreased my tension DRAMATICALLY from when I started and have much better results, and I continue to refine my technique as I progress. Security pins of any sort are what I think of as 'advanced', and I'm not quite to that point yet, but if there are spool pins in this lock, I'm pretty happy that I got it open at all!

Yes you can, of course!
Just don't understand one thing. You're not the first to call me Felipe after I said my name is Filipe. Don't get me wrong, I don't mind at all. I just wonder why that happens Does Filipe has a weird meaning there? Or it's about the pronouciation of the word?
I'm asking this because both people who called me that are American
Again, this is just an observation, don't take it as if I'm pointing something!

As for the spools. I used to think like you and had a very small experience with spools because I though they were too advanced for me. Only had worked a couple of tryings in a 3 pined lock before picking this lock.
Then I realised spools don't make picking more difficult. It may, in some situations, make picking easier. The only diference is when you set all the pins, the plug doesn't rotate because there are some false sets, and you have to work your way through them again. But the picking process itself doesn't get harder. It just needs extra work. In fact, with the tolerances that the spools give the lock, you may sometimes feel a clearer feedback on the pins.

I still have locks with no spools I still can't pick. And others with spools that I find much easier. So give them a try. Repin a lock and see what you're up against

Canoss has of course great historic relevance

Think it's unrelated too

I know a few stuff but only from their blossoming periods.

When we used to rule the world! Half for Portugal, half for Spain. Then we weren't happy with that and ruined it all ahaha

That's something I love in forums like this. We should do this cultural mingling stuff more.

It's funny, I've already discussed this with another member. It's great to see that although the distances and generations gaps (I don't know your age ARF-GEF, but Mikeh727 has said before he has a son, so he's probably way older than me) many of us share the same points of view in many things!