Ocariz Security Cylinder

[fgarci03]

So...

I found on OLX (ebay's little son ) a cylinder for sale which I found interesting. Mainly because of the key. So here it is!


As you can see It's a regular pin tumbler but the key has dimples on both sides. Making a total of 15 pins!

So I had to gut it
First, Sorry for the flashy pics, I only noticed it when I opened them on the computer, but it's understandable:
The key with all pins aligned. The pins on the right and left are the ones that are operated by the dimples.




I found this pretty odd. And the cylinder had no springs nor driver pins for those, just a small "ramp":


Here's the plug BTW:


I found this system pretty strange, had never seen it before. So When I assembled the plug back I understood!
With a key, everything is aligned, as normal:


But... without key, instead of the side pins being pushed inside by the driver pins, like regular pins are, they are pushed outside by the key pins:


So they block the plug unless the key has dimples to let them go inside the plug, allowing it to rotate!
So although it has 15 pins, only 5 of them are active.

I haven't picked it yet, but I believe it's just a matter of picking a regular 5 pin tumbler. And I believe that the dimples on the key are just to confuse you, as it would need just holes, not encoded dimples. I will probably be making holes on those dimples and see if it interferes with anything.


I have also found that the lock has an anti-drill pin, and the 2 first pins on each row are also hardned, you can see that on the previous images:


Have you ever seen something like this?
For the price I think it's a pretty reasonable lock.

[GWiens2001]

Fgarci07,

Nice lock, and nice pictures. I agree with your theory about the dimple pins being passive. In picking, they could just be ignored.

For actual keys, the blanks could be made with no dimple holes. Then you could have different combinations of dimple pins/no dimple pins as a key control. If the key had no dimple at that point, the dimple pin would continue, as you suggest, to block the plug from turning. But then again, if they want to keep up their 'pin count', they could just make the blanks with all type dimples.

Interesting that there are two hardened pins in each row in addition to the hardened pin pressed into the plug.

Thanks for sharing,

Gordon

[ARF-GEF]

Then you could have different combinations of dimple pins/no dimple pins as a key control.

Since they are passive you could simply mill a long continuous "trench" along the key. All the dimples will fall, so there's no need to mill actual round dimples.
As for key control: I agree that it can be used for key control, but it could be easily circumnavigated by the method I describe above.

Nice lock fgarci, congrats on the find!

[fgarci03]

Interesting, thanks!

I will have a picking session on it later today perhaps. I found no reliable feedback on a short try when I brought it home but then I gutted it and got to go out for lunch with family.

The thing I like the most is that I got it from a guy who represented this brand in Portugal and now he's selling them for about 10€. I find plenty of simple dimple locks being sold for 30€ (which was the price they were sold here too) without any security features but 6 regular pins.

This one has the passive and anti-drill pins and inserts. Since picking isn't a regular way to illegal entry, I find this one to be cool for low price applications.

Now a question: of course we, knowing what we know, wouldn't rely on this one. But as a low price lock, does it meet the standarts to be at least a fairly good lock to install?

I mean, it has anti-drill pins and has an uncommon keyway with passive pins which helps preventing bumping and impressioning. Yes still possible, but as Oldfast said:

But it would have the average criminal with a set of 'normal' bumpkeys moving on the the next house.

What do you think of this one to advice someone who tells me that wants a cheap but (fairly) secure lock?

[ARF-GEF]

When I thin about picking security I don't count passive security measures.
They are only there to stop a differently shaped key from opening the lock but they bare (if at all) hinder picking.
I'm not sure whether you guys agree with it.(?)
I know they are more than nothing, but I think their main point is in master keyed systems.
Usually they won't cause any trouble if you just leave them alone.

But when it comes to how secure a lock is, the main point is not picking. There are many factors to be considered It's how easy it is to drill it or the more professional way: pulling the core or the least professional was: the breaking of the lock.
For obvious reasons I wouldn't like to detail these stuff out here in the open wilds. (I don't want to help anyone considering something illegal.)
I'm not really interested in destructive entry anyway so that's not my area of "expertise" .

So it's not easy to decide how secure it is.It's hard to make a good lock, you have to make it very precise and resistant to all kind of attack, beacuse one weak-point is already too much...
Try scratching it and surfaces of known hardness (like if you have a lock you know is made of high quality steel) to compare their hardness, see if it has any drill protection inserts. Look for how precisely the lock is built that's often a good measure of quality.

[femurat]

Imagine what happens when you turn a key with the dimples on the sides deeper than their correct depth or milled away: at 90 degrees they will be pushed inside by the regular top pins and springs now under them, blocking the plug forever.

Nice lock by the way

[GWiens2001]

The passive pins are like the pins in a Sargent KESO... almost like a short nail with an oversized head. The passive pins can not be pushed in further than the surface of the plug shear line. If the tolerances were really bad, and the driver pins were pushed in, you could just pick it like a normal dimple lock. At least that is what I see in the pictures.

Gordon

[ARF-GEF]

Femurat: A good point. But I think if you just milled them away just right: no problem; but if you milled it away too deep: you insert a thin wire and raise them.pushing in a very thin pick (like peterson SS line) could be helpful. You would insert it sideways and then slowly attempting to ratate it up this pushing app the pins upwards.
But this is just theory I'm not 100% sure that it would work.

[fgarci03]

almost like a short nail with an oversized head. The passive pins can not be pushed in further than the surface of the plug shear line.

Gordon nailed it.

It was a very good point @femurat & ARF-GEF, but on this specific lock it doesn't apply.

I'll be sawing a little bit when I find my saw, to see if it's a good material or not. It doesn't seem to be very fragile, nor very hard. Just regular.
But if installed properly would be hard to do what ARF-GEF said..

Anyway thank you! I'll have o further test it to see if it's good enough for a basic security layer!

[ARF-GEF]

I agree. I'm sure you would install it the right way so breaking is not really a big concern.
What remains are drilling and core-pulling
As for them you can have a special part of the door handle which protects against both drilling and pulling. I can only recommend them, they turn even a simpler lock into a formidable foe for the criminals, (they rarely pick anything from middle class cylinder and up).

[phrygianradar]

Really cool lock design. I have never seen this before. Have you tried picking it yet? I will be interested to see if it picks like a regular 5 pin tumbler lock. I don't see why it wouldn't, as everyone noted already, the side dimple pins are passive. But I find it very interesting indeed. Thanks for the cool share fgarci03!

[fgarci03]

So I picked it a while ago:

It's just like picking a regular pin tumbler. Don't even need to beware for the side pins. When you pick it, even if the side pins are being pressed, you feel a slight rotation which means it's poped. Just remove your pick and the plug will rotate (it doesn't always happen this, only if you are pressing one of the side pins when you set the last pin).

The only problem I found is that the warding on the top of the keyway makes you need to go with your pick in an S shape all the way to the sheerline. And when you don't set the pin at the first time, the side pin gets on the way of it, making it difficult to reach the pin.

Here:


But after the initial curiosity of the "different" lock, it's all about the same. 5 pins, weird keyway. Practice

[femurat]

Good point Gordon and others, I stand corrected. I didn't know the plug had holes the exact depth of the pin head, preventing them from entering more than the head itself. If these holes were a hair deeper, they could act as trap pins... hence my warning.

Cheers

[fgarci03]

Well, after picking it, I found that the plug gets stuck every 90º, and the pins need to be lifted again. I'm not sure if this is intended or just an error, but it does trap the key without the proper side bitting.

So I guess it's not so easy to bump it after all. Still possible I know! But I guess you were right femurat

[femurat]

F*** yeah!