Need simple code key cutter

[knowspicker1]

I am just starting out, without a lot of money to invest in tools, so I want to know what type of code key cutter I should buy. Right now, I mainly handle residential locks; I figure out a way to master-key a facility so that each tenant only needs 1 key to open the gate and laundry, and then open his or her own unit, while the management company gets the grand master key which opens everything.

Most of the locks here are (cheap) Kwikset 5 or 6 pin locks. I occasionally see some Schlages, but I mainly work on Kwikset KW1 keys. Since my needs are so limited, but would be a recommended code key cutter? A Pak-a-Punch, a HPC 1200, or something else? Right now, my main criteria is cost, so a used tool would be great. Any recommendations?

[cledry]

Well if you can swing it get a HPC 1200.

The type of keying you are doing on the pool gate and common entry is called maison keying. It is a distinct security risk and if you are using Kwikset keys you will find that everyone from outside the complex will also probably be able to open these locks with their house key. We discourage this type of keying, instead we use an access control combination lock or keypad with master key over ride. You might want to check code because maison keying isn't allowed in some regions because they are so insecure. Most condos here also aren't master keyed but most apartments are. Again with Kwikset depending on the size of the system it will be nothing but trouble.

[knowspicker1]

Well if you can swing it get a HPC 1200.

Thanks. To be precise, we're talking about the HPC 1200PCH punch (Not the HPC 1200CMB or blitz) right?

You might want to check code because maison keying isn't allowed in some regions because they are so insecure. Most condos here also aren't master keyed but most apartments are. Again with Kwikset depending on the size of the system it will be nothing but trouble.

Thanks, I don't think they are un-permitted in my area, but I take your point about the lack of security.

[cledry]

Well if you can swing it get a HPC 1200.

Thanks. To be precise, we're talking about the HPC 1200PCH punch (Not the HPC 1200CMB or blitz) right?

You might want to check code because maison keying isn't allowed in some regions because they are so insecure. Most condos here also aren't master keyed but most apartments are. Again with Kwikset depending on the size of the system it will be nothing but trouble.

Thanks, I don't think they are un-permitted in my area, but I take your point about the lack of security.

No I was talking about a Blitz. I don't really care for punches, but if it will do the job for you choose whatever fits your budget.

[Squelchtone]

How about an ILCO 008 Mini Mite or a HPC Mini Speedex machine and some KW1 space and depth keys to make keys by code manually? That's about 1/4 the price of a Blitz 1200CMB and around the same price as a pak-a-punch.

just a thought,
Squelchtone

[cledry]

Space and depth keys are cheaper but take a bit of practice to use correctly. Most people also need to do a bit of manual filing to correct angles and fish hooks because the guide and cutter on these machines are flat on one side. They will work but time is money and it will take much longer to generate a system. The other thing to be careful of is that the key is a second generation key, and if you provide more than one copy you are already at the 3 rd generation.

[Evan]

I am just starting out, without a lot of money to invest in tools, so I want to know what type of code key cutter I should buy. Right now, I mainly handle residential locks; I figure out a way to master-key a facility so that each tenant only needs 1 key to open the gate and laundry, and then open his or her own unit, while the management company gets the grand master key which opens everything.

Most of the locks here are (cheap) Kwikset 5 or 6 pin locks. I occasionally see some Schlages, but I mainly work on Kwikset KW1 keys. Since my needs are so limited, but would be a recommended code key cutter? A Pak-a-Punch, a HPC 1200, or something else? Right now, my main criteria is cost, so a used tool would be great. Any recommendations?

@knowspicker:

Just starting out doesn't mean that you should not obtain the proper tools...

Do not buy the HPC-1200-PCH, in the long run it will not serve your needs and you will end up buying and using something else while it collects dust...

You mostly do re-keys on residential, etc, etc, no commercial work at all ?
So what do you do when someone calls you with a key number off a file cabinet and asks you to make a key ? Do you impression the lock ? Do you have code software ?

It sounds to me like you have several issues going on --

1. You don't yet possess a proper knowledge of the subject of master keying, how and why it is done and the security versus convenience balance which is a tricky game...

2. You have underestimated the start up costs in tools and equipment required in order to provide the basic level of service in the locksmithing trade...

If you can not afford a code cutting machine and the required accessories in the couple of thousand dollar range then perhaps you need to re-evaluate your pricing levels as what you are charging can not support your business in the long term... By the way, while on that subject, how much are you saving up for on a weekly or monthly basis to pay for a replacement vehicle when the one you are using now suddenly up and dies on you or would require more dollars to repair than is prudent to invest in the process ?

As to your "discovery" of maison keying you haven't really sold your customer a secure solution... The headaches that the management will have to deal with as tenants change over where all the old keys will still work on the front gate and the laundry room areas will eventually cause some kind of problem... Yeah it will cost the tenants all of an extra $2-4 dollars to copy an additional key and have to use one key for the fate and laundry and one key for their unit door but that would work a lot more secure in the long run than the one key solution you provided...

~~ Evan

[kieths]

'knowspicker' - Rather than focus on your keying choices....

Your most economical key code solution is an accurate key copier and a very good quality set of space & depth (aka 'pattern') keys. That is NOT the most accurate solution, as you will lose some accuracy with each generation. But it is the most cost effective solution for originating keys by code.

Check your local laws regarding licensing needed for keymaking. Commonly, basic key copying does not require the operator to be licensed, but key 'originating' does.

From your description, you're dealing primarily with Kwikset alone. A punch can make quick code-produced keys, but most punches cover limited keyways. The Pak-a-punch you mentioned is flexible with the purchase of different kits (perhaps an extra $175 per additional keyway solution). A more accurate solution for Kwikset was the now extinct Ilco Exacta MK2. The Pro-Lok BP201-KW (bluepunch for Kwikset) is most likely the best Kwikset specific punch on the market today. The HPC 1200PCH is more versatile and covers more keyways, but it requires frequent calibration and will likely add a number of mis-cut keys to your scrap bin. The Blitz machine is a more professional approach....if you plan to be a locksmith rather than just deleting and copying/originating keys as a sideline.

A person's investment in tools often depends upon one's service scope and commitment. Your first and most versatile long term investment as an aspiring locksmith is an accurate and stable key duplicator. From personal experience, the smaller the cutting wheel, the more 'arc' in the bed of your cuts (translation - buy a machine with a larger diameter cutting wheel to make better/flatter cuts). A 'quality' new machine will cost you perhaps $800, though you may find a good used one for half that on Craigslist.

[sterry20]

someone sent me a flyer for a new blitz for 1500.00 this is a great pricei paid 700.00 for my used one and had to by a new cutter before long ill go back thru my records but they only had 5 for sale and this was a while ago

[sterry20]

lockpicks .com 1549.00 1200hpc cant beat that price any where hope this helps

[ARF-GEF]

So I have a few questions people

Why is mansion keying a security risk?
It is hard to decode the key of an individual apartment from al those master pins(?)
About past tenants having access: Sure, but you can only avoid that if you change the lock every time someone moves out. That means a new lock and probably like 150 new keys...
If you have a protected profile whey won't be able to copy it anyway.
And most likely when they sell the flat they will provide the keys too right?
Do you think it is such a big security risk that a past tenant may have access to the front door? I mean the main "defence" is the actual apartment door.

The other thing to be careful of is that the key is a second generation key, and if you provide more than one copy you are already at the 3 rd generation.

Second generation is when it's a copy of the original And 3rd generation is when it's a copy of a copy?

What is key 'originating'?


As for a decent key machine:Are Silca-s not available in the US? I think they are the best in Europe at least.

[Evan]

Why is mansion keying a security risk?
It is hard to decode the key of an individual apartment from al those master pins(?)
About past tenants having access: Sure, but you can only avoid that if you change the lock every time someone moves out. That means a new lock and probably like 150 new keys...

Yes, it is a security risk... With SC1 or KW1 locks someone could randomly walk up to the door and have a decent chance of operating the lock with their own house key... Also with masion keyed locks pin wear will eventually allow for the key to be removed before returning to the key pull position leaving the lock unsecured... There is no way to remove one key from operating such a lock...

The better solution is one key for common areas and changing it when there have been enough lost or non-returned keys from tenant changeover to maintain safety and security... Like you said there are more expensive option would be restricted keyways for such doors in order to maintain control over who can have access to the buildings/complex unsupervised (so the tenants won't give out copies of an unrestricted key to friends and family or engage in unauthorized sub-letting)...

In a large complex or building just being able to breach the outer layer of security might provide opportunities to cause serious damage through vandalism...

The other thing to be careful of is that the key is a second generation key, and if you provide more than one copy you are already at the 3 rd generation.

Second generation is when it's a copy of the original And 3rd generation is when it's a copy of a copy?

What is key 'originating'?

Actually original keys would wear much longer than 2nd generation copies...

3rd generation would be a copy of a 2nd generation...
4th generation would be a copy of a 3rd generation, etc...

Key origination is creating a new key by code to factory specs using a code cutting machine, as using a duplicator and depth keys would create 2nd generation copies of originals (the depth keys)...

~~ Evan

[ARF-GEF]

Thank you very much Evan that was really helpful!
I actually gave up on getting an answer to this thread

I do not think it is reasonable to fear a decoding attempt from a stolen mansion keyed front lock. There would be too many possibilities. But Since I have no expertise in this I think it's better ask you guys: What do you think about it?

I talked to the other tenants at a meeting and the dissed me
They do not want to spend on a new lock and the keys.
I'm not actually worried, the vandalism usually turn out to be from one of the tenants. Plus we have CCTV. (I know hoodies make them useless)
How worried should I be?