how do i make a change key

[GWiens2001]

I have a Falcon SFIC that is only different on the #6 pin stack. All the other control pins were #10. It was super easy to pick to control, but very difficult to pick to operating. The change key could very easily be made into a control key. Even though it was my first SFIC, and came no keys, it was super easy to impression a change key - no harder than a normal pin tumbler lock. Then I compared the change key to what I could see/feel when I picked it to control. And the only obvious difference was that the 6th stack looked deeper than the change key. Copied the change key, filed the key a little deeper on the 6th stack, and continued impressioning until I had a control key.

The short story is that just using one control pin greatly weakens the security, because a core picked to control can be decoded. Strongly suggest a completely different control key as the others above me have suggested.

[FarmerFreak]

This.

It's easy to understand that if you keyed up a bunch of cores and the first two cuts are always a constant. Then you would never see any difference until the third chamber was pinned up.

We are just trying to clear up a few misconceptions all while giving everyone a better deeper understanding of how these locks work.

[GWiens2001]

Question regarding SFIC pinning...

Been looking more at A2 systems trying to understand their makeup better. If I understand it correctly, you do not want the master pin and the control pin combined to equal 10, because then the change key (at least for that pin stack) would equal the control key bitting. Is this correct?

Gordon

[IndigoChild]

Ok I would like to clarify some things.

We need to first understand that IC-Cores are regional. The same keyways do not exist all over the world, that said it is very likely that the operations of these locks could very well be different as well. I am a journeyman under a locksmith who has been smithing for almost 40 years now. He has taught me some very valuable information. But as I belong to certain organizations I can not share my full knowledge with you guys unless we are to discuss it in a private manner in a controlled environment. But I see here that many of you are hobbyists and have dealt with IC-Cores often. Now with that all in mind let me begin.

The IC-Cores where I am from are largely SFIC. So much so I have not seen a LFIC in use. LFIC is growing in popularity because it is less vulnerable to attack. They also come in a larger variety of keyways. Dealing with SFIC all the time has taught me how the particular cylinders in my region work. I have taken them apart to understand them and my boss has made it clear to me as well how they work.

I stated in my first post

Usually the sfic are controlled by the third pin. I dont know if that is all you have to change or not but its worth a try. But usually the control is on a whole different bitting than the rest of the system.

This what I said is perfectly valid, where I am from. But I neglected to provide detail. The SFIC have multiple sheer lines. I could have a key system that follows like this.

C: 125352
M: 369554
1: 569556
2: 569558
3: 569536
4: 569538

Now as you can see the Core Key is an entirely separate bitting from the rest of the system. This does mean that the core key has an entirely different sheer line. This is almost always the case. Gordon pointed out that he had a lock that had one pin that he could pick to pick it to control rather than a series of pins. In this instance my initial suggestion would have been very valid. The cores I am familiar with are internally controlled by the third pin. What I mean by this is if you key up a core and leave out the third stack the Core key would operate as a master key, It would operate all of the locks in your system as well as have the ability to remove the core from it's housing. When you put your third stack into place the core key can only rotate 15 degrees clockwise and its only function it to remove the core. But as the Core Key in my system is entirely different the chances that I could progress my third cut to make a functioning core key are very slim. But if you have a Core Key with the numbers "563538" This would be totally possible to create the Core Key by simple progression.

It is worth a try to progress it. It likely will not work. We are from different regions of the word so your locks will likely be different. But this is my input. Thank you for reading.

[GWiens2001]

Indigo,

Thank you for that clarification. Can see now about the bitting being different, unlike the Falcon example I posted.

I know that some IC locks, such as the Medeco LFIC, uses pins 3 and 4 for control, and Schlage uses pin 7 on a couple of LFICs as well, so now I get what you are saying.

Can I ask what SFIC locks you have worked with that use pin #3 for control? I have tons to learn, and want, in the words of Johnny Five, more input!

Gordon

[IndigoChild]

Indigo,

Thank you for that clarification. Can see now about the bitting being different, unlike the Falcon example I posted.

I know that some IC locks, such as the Medeco LFIC, uses pins 3 and 4 for control, and Schlage uses pin 7 on a couple of LFICs as well, so now I get what you are saying.

Can I ask what SFIC locks you have worked with that use pin #3 for control? I have tons to learn, and want, in the words of Johnny Five, more input!

Gordon

We work mostly on Arrow, Best and our own restricted keyway and all three are the same whether its an A1 or a J keyway they all function the same way. I havnt actually seen any yet that function in any other way except for the LFIC.

[ARF-GEF]

I can not share my full knowledge with you guys unless we are to discuss it in a private manner in a controlled environment.

If you feel uncomfortable posting out in the open you can always post in the advanced section

If you are not a member yet:
I'm not a Mod so obviously the decision is none of my business,(and naturally I have no oversight whatsoever of the decision process) but looking from down here as a humble member I think you appliance wouldn't be entirely unreasonable. Do check out the rules of admittance first though, I forgot what are the actual ones.
If you comply with the rules it might be worth a shot
Good luck getting in Indigo!

[Sinifar]

Look, IN Small format Interchangeable core, it makes no difference who's it is. 5 - 6 - 7 pin, ANY keyway, the answer is the same. AND Yes I do have some Best 5 pin cores around here which go way back. Not made since the 1950's. Today almost everything is 7 pin, but usually smith issued stuff is 6 pin.

There is a change key, usually a master key, and a control. In some there is only a change key, which acts like a master and works the whole set of cores, and a change key.

EVERY pin cell has to work both the operating shear line, and the control shear line.

There is a math formula to work out the bittings. Remember in A2, the total of the pin stacks has to be 23. There is ALSO a Lab tool called "Easy Way" pinning chart for A2 systems. Get it from any lock supplier, and you will see how the stacks need to get pinned.

It is not uncommon for the smith to use "off timed" control keys to stop ghost keys from operating the control. If you are running a pattern like E-O-O-E-O-E-E for the operating set, then the control would be O-E-E-O-E-O-O. This prevents ANY operating key from working the control.

A4 has it's own different set of pins, and math formula.

Don't forget, besides color coded pins there are also factory pins which are not color coded. We use both in our systems. There are spool pins in the "B" or "top" pins as well, in 6 - 7 - 9 - 10 - and 12 sizes. Lab makes them, and you can get them from Arrow as well.

IF you get a Lab "Annex" tool set you can pull the pin stacks out intact, and examine them with a dial caliper. This is how you reverse engineer the thing. I won't say more in an open forum. EXCEPT to say that in most cores there are 4 pins in each stack, along with the spring and cap.

Keyways are both open and restricted. There are A to Q / TA - TE / WA - WY in Best and most other cores, along with stuff like Arrow 1C and 1D which are open, then there are the locksmith keyways, and other restricted ones which you will never get like B1 - B2 which are Best Peaks, Arrow 2A - 2B / 3C - 3D which are factory restricted. AND there are more. Like Arrow 52 - 56 Flex.

SFIC is a fussy lock, and close tolerance is the norm. All keys work best when cut as originals only, We punch ours like Best does. I know one can sometimes get away with a duplicate cut in the normal fashion, but it is rare those work smoothly over the whole system.

Large format Interchangeable Core is another animal entirely, and many books have been written specifically to pin those. A Corbin Russwin Cylinder Manual is a must for working with theirs, Sargent has their own,and Medeco is another animal entirely. Yale and Schlage pretty much are what you see, and the control is the grand master, or highest operating level with an additional cut, making it the 7th cut on a special blank.

Unless you work with this on a daily basis, I would suggest you leave well enough alone. It is complex enough that even most locksmiths bring their core work over here, and let us do it for them. I charge a "wholesale price" -- and I don't make much on the work for others, but help the trade in a tough area, of which I am considered an expert, as I worked as a sub contractor for Best for over 20 years.

Sinifar

[ARF-GEF]

What is this E-O-O-E-O-E-E?
it sound like the first line of a tribal song.
BTW thanks for the info Sinifar! It's always interesting to learn from an expert.

[GWiens2001]

E-O-E-E-O, ETC.

Even, Odd, Even, Even, Odd

On a Best A2 pinning system, if you use a #1 pin, you risk the pin flipping on its' side or between the plug and shell, jamming the lock. Also with wear from use, you increase risk of another key being able to open it.

To reduce this problem, it is best if you use either even or odd numbered pins in any individual pin stack.

Also, as Sinifar wisely posted, you can use the opposite measurements for the control key as you use for the GMK (Grand Master Key), MK (Master Key) or CK (Change Key). Then, as he said, you greatly reduce the chance of a change key being used by mistake as a control key.

Further explanation (again, I am NOT a locksmith, just a hobbiest, so take my post with a grain of salt), the pin depth steps (on an A2 system) are .0125". Rather than having to do the math for each depth, they made it much easier by just calling the pins by their number rather than by their depth. A #1 is .0125", a #2 is .0250". #3 is .0375", and so forth.

The difference between the plug shear line and the control shear line is .125", or 10 steps. Since there are only 10 bitting depths on a Best (or Falcon, etcetera) key, this is intended to keep someone from making a change key by simply increasing or reducing the cuts of the key by 10 steps.

Ideally, in a Best system, each stack should add up to 23. The link above gives great explanations of the reasoning and measuring of the Best SFIC systems.

[GWiens2001]

Also, my deepest thanks to MrWizard, who gave me an education on Best systems a while back. Most of what I have learned about Best, I learned from him. Anything that I learned incorrectly is my screw-up, and has no bearing on what he explained.

Gordon

[ARF-GEF]

Interesting. Thanks Gordon!

[keymaster1053]

I must agree with Sinifar here. I've been a locksmith for 25 years, and have done a LOT of SFIC work, using Best, arrow, KSP, Falcon, ESP. and every single chamber of these systems when pinned up "properly" (A2 system = pin stack total 23) WILL only pull the control lug when the control key is inserted. UNLESS your pass or master key HAPPENS to have the same cut as the control in that given chamber.
Keymaster1053

[MrWizard]

Also, my deepest thanks to MrWizard, who gave me an education on Best systems a while back. Most of what I have learned about Best, I learned from him. Anything that I learned incorrectly is my screw-up, and has no bearing on what he explained.

Gordon

Gordon

I really appreciate the shout out very nice of you to do so.
It makes it all worth while to pass along information to help others that I know will benefit form it.

Always a pleasure communicating with you and glad to know the information was helpful to you.

Richard