Master Key Systems

[cledry]

As far as maison keying, is there any disadvantage to doing that? The only disadvantage of maison keying is the possibility for any key in the system to potentially work a cylinder it is not supposed to. But maison keying is essentially what you are trying to do by (what you call) cross keying.

"Maison Keying" is the terminology used for a cylinder when EVERY key in the system will operate such a cylinder... It is commonly used in apartment and condo homes on the front door... While it is technically "cross keying" it is different than cross keying as being discussed in this thread...

~~ Evan

That definition is not one I have come across before. All references I find, and how I have been taught and used the term for years is that "many keys" will work a single lock, not "every key".

For example I have a care home that I do work for with 8 individual buildings. The individual units in each building open the common area to that specific building but not the other buildings. That is what I and the references to it that I find call maison keying.

[cledry]

By phantom vs programed in, do you mean sort of like how if I have a door key that is 55555 and another that is 22222 and I key it to both, technically any combination of those two numbers will open it?

YES... Also key 77777 would operate as well as any key which combines 2, 5 or 7 bittings... Its a long list... Here is some of it:
22225, 22255, 22555, 25555, 22227, 22277, 22777, 27777,
55552, 55522, 55222, 52222, 55557, 55577, 55777, 57777,
77772, 77722, 77222, 72222, 77775, 77755, 77555, 75555,
and on and on until all combinations of 2, 5 and 7 in any position are exhausted...

~~ Evan

No it wouldn't. Keyed to 22222 and 55555 there is no way any combination with 7 would operate the lock. In each chamber we have a 2 bottom pin and a 3 master pin. I cannot see how you could arrive at 7 from that maths.

[cledry]

Never mind Evan, I just read your later post. I see it was just a brain fart.

[Evan]

As far as maison keying, is there any disadvantage to doing that? The only disadvantage of maison keying is the possibility for any key in the system to potentially work a cylinder it is not supposed to. But maison keying is essentially what you are trying to do by (what you call) cross keying.

"Maison Keying" is the terminology used for a cylinder when EVERY key in the system will operate such a cylinder... It is commonly used in apartment and condo homes on the front door... While it is technically "cross keying" it is different than cross keying as being discussed in this thread...

~~ Evan

That definition is not one I have come across before. All references I find, and how I have been taught and used the term for years is that "many keys" will work a single lock, not "every key".

For example I have a care home that I do work for with 8 individual buildings. The individual units in each building open the common area to that specific building but not the other buildings. That is what I and the references to it that I find call maison keying.

Yes, every key planned for that building must operate the masion keyed front door lock... "House" keying would require all the keys in that "house"/building to operate the front door... While there may be large keying systems which include several examples of such cylinders, the compartmentalization within the system hierarchy must allow every key within each division of the system to operate its masion keyed cylinder without interchanging with any of the others and allow for a proper amount of future codes for rekeying as the units change over...

Such a system is not the most ideal approach -- better to have a separate key for each building entry door which can be changed when needed if a key is lost without requiring all locks in a given building be rekeyed to ensure proper safety and security of the elderly residents...

~~ Evan

[YouLuckyFox]

In a previous job, I had a key that operated the main entrance, the entrance to the reception area before my office (106,) the office itself (106C,) a door within that office that merged to the boss' office (106D) and the copying room key. Used to be in office 106B, and 106 D was the meeting room, they were going to have to rekey the entire building (they said) but I noted that if they changed the actual lock over everything would work, this ended up being the best solution. Needless to say, when I received this key I was informed that if I lost it I would have to pay like $50 for each master key that had to be cut, $25 for each sub-master, and maybe $5 or $10 dollars for every other key that had access to each lock my key went to in addition to paying for my own key . I always thought this was an avoidable and unnecessary threat until I got a good read over this thread! Very good topic, thanks for the information, I had a little trouble understanding what Maison-keying was until now. Also, good thing the keys at this place have a good side-pinning or there could be a real security risk for picking.

[GordonAlexander]

I haven't created a system in Masterking that required cross keying but I think you can allow for some cylinders to be cross keyed, but you have to allow for it at the creation of the system. I think you would end up with multiple master pins, or you would have to dedicate a sub master for a single cylinder if you didn't allow for the cross keying at the creation of the system. Perhaps you could contact the creator of the system if possible for specific help. Otherwise, if the system is large enough you could steal an unused submasters from the end of the system for say, keying an individual group of doors in an office. The main entry could be keyed to an individual change key and have the residents of each office using submasters so they all can access their own offices and the main entry of that suite/office. Chances are you don't want to waste that many masters, or submasters whatever the size of the system. But, I understand the potential for disaster is high when you uncontrolled cross keying corrupts the security of your system.

As Evan mentioned, it would be possible for other keys to open crosskeyed cylinders if you are not careful. If you are dealing with Corbin I assume it is a single step progression of .028 or .030 master pins. So if you absolutely had to put multiple master pins in any given chamber, you would have to exhaustively review the entire system to make sure that you are not keying a cylinder to another change key under the same master.

I am interested in learning how cross key in A2, A3 and A4 to expand my institutional skills. Any info gathered would be appreciated!

[Evan]

As Evan mentioned, it would be possible for other keys to open crosskeyed cylinders if you are not careful. If you are dealing with Corbin I assume it is a single step progression of .028 or .030 master pins. So if you absolutely had to put multiple master pins in any given chamber, you would have to exhaustively review the entire system to make sure that you are not keying a cylinder to another change key under the same master.

I am interested in learning how cross key in A2, A3 and A4 to expand my institutional skills. Any info gathered would be appreciated!

You are discussing a Corbin-Russwin keying system using the System 70 bitting specs if you are considering .028", otherwise for pre-70 systems it is .014"...

As far as how to cross key, you need to plan those relationships into the keying system at its inception and use the specified bitting ranges dedicated to them... Often times it is not the most efficient deployment of a keying system to give users one-key access to an area using their office/room key, but to examine how access to the common (shared) spaces amongst the group of offices works, it is far less complicated to work out a cross keying scheme with fewer bittings being considered like I stated before in my past posts in this thread...

~~ Evan

[halfhalt]

This post may be in the wrong place but here goes...

I have a master keyed Kwikset system with approx 12 tenant keys and 1 master. I need to add a new building with 3 apartments to the system. New building has a common entry door shared by the apartments. So, on the 3 individual apartment doors I'd like both the tenant key and our master key to open, plus I'd like the 3 tenant keys to also open the common door. Our master key is pinned 65563. I'm totally open to any pinning that would suffice on the common and tenant keys - just want to keep our master key pinning as is if possible. Any suggestions?

[globallockytoo]

need to know the bittings of the other keys in the system (other building) otherwise phantoms are impossible to exclude.

[cledry]

This post may be in the wrong place but here goes...

I have a master keyed Kwikset system with approx 12 tenant keys and 1 master. I need to add a new building with 3 apartments to the system. New building has a common entry door shared by the apartments. So, on the 3 individual apartment doors I'd like both the tenant key and our master key to open, plus I'd like the 3 tenant keys to also open the common door. Our master key is pinned 65563. I'm totally open to any pinning that would suffice on the common and tenant keys - just want to keep our master key pinning as is if possible. Any suggestions?

The way we would do it is not to do it. We would try and talk the customer out of it and instead add a combination lock or card access to the common area door.

[billdeserthills]

Only way to do this job correctly is to write a list of the tenant key bittings, not that big of a deal maybe to go from door to door with your key guage, and measure the keys in use. Remember, the locksmith who set this system in motion got fired for some reason. Extra charges should be assessed for the extra time required to write up what is the actual master-key chart/system currently in use.

Your other option is going door to door with sets of pre-cut keys, in order to ensure you do not add a key that opens an existing unit.

Here is a sloppy option I have seen used in the past, old style though.
You take the common door lock and fill each cylinder hole with a #1 kwikset pin & (5) .20 master pins. Also you will likely need to change each top pin to the kwikset #1 bottom pin too. You might even hafta chamfer each bottom pin hole as well, but you'll find that Every kwikset key now fits this door. Of course chances are very good that nobody but the actual tenants will ever try their keys in the common lock anyway. My Dad showed me this years ago on a common pool gate. It was easier with schlage key bitting, but can be accomplished with kwikset too.
Remember to write on your bill that: I Understand That Every Kwikset Key Will Now Fit The Common Lock & have it signed by the person who pays you, as you are going out of your way to save the owner money, and not entangle yourself in a lawsuit.