How about this one? I invented it ...

[marginal]

You have to be careful with the hollow tube. If the walls are thick, that need as big space and thus allowws a lot of space for manipuation.
If the walls are thin the key is vulnerable.
So I would recommend making the walls as thin as possible while making the key from sth as strong as possible.

Still, using only common sense and a little knowledge of the lock picking procedure, how may one pick ten random pins (or more) among 50 (or more) in three spiral grooves (or more) simultaneously?

Thanks.

My bad, I forgot it does not have to be done simultaneously .

[FarmerFreak]

I've thought about this a bit more..

Size of the key. The key is going to be HUGE. I mean, even if you use small pins the diameter of the key is going to be what, an inch in diameter? Most people aren't going to want a key that size on their ring.. You did mention that this would probably be for safes. Which might not seem like a problem at first, but safe keys (for real safes, not wallmart special) are typically long (8-12") and thin. With new safes that may not be a problem because they could be manufactured with a larger hole, but it won't retrofit well into older safes without some serious drilling.

The key has to rotate when entering/exiting the lock. I don't think people wrists are going to like the extra twisting. You could have the head of the key rotate 180 degrees or however much is required so the user doesn't have to turn anything until the key is inserted all the way. Since the lock already has a return spring, taking the key back out shouldn't require any more twisting than a normal lock.

Just like MacGyver101 pointed out, don't see anything in your drawings to prevent the pins from extending all the way to the outer housing. Which means that your "dummy pins/deepest cut" should be resting at the correct depth while resting against the outer housing. When it comes to picking that is a good thing because it will prevent a straight dimple pick from going underneath them and getting to the pins in the back! It also means that the key will need to have holes in it for each one of those pins.

Picking. You asked how may one pick ten random pins (or more) among 50 (or more) in three spiral grooves (or more)? The spiral grooves are not as big of an issue as you may think. Remember that there is plenty of space in the keyway outside of those spiral grooves. Now, let's talk about picking pins for a second and let's try not to over complicate a simple process. When the lock is tensioned, a binding pin won't be springy and will need to be set. A non binding pin will be springy and can be left alone. Your dummy pins are still going to follow that basic principle, and they will always be springy (unless we screw up and lifts them up too high). If a pick has access to all of the pins, then the lock will be easier and easier with more and more dummy pins. The more pins that actually need to be lifted to be set the harder the lock is going to be to pick.

Specialty picks. Since a regular pick may or may not be able to get past the deepest cut pins in the lock. A specialty pick could be made for it. Pardon my very poorly done picture, it's just to give you the idea of how it could be done. I didn't draw the pick twisting the way it would have to be to go into the lock because I'm sure it wouldn't look right if I tried.. http://i669.photobucket.com/albums/vv59 ... 5/1-56.png That is an example of four pick tips, each one would go in between two pins and be push/pulled to lift and set those two pins. Obviously there would be three rows of pick tips like that.. I know what you are thinking, my picture only shows enough pick tips to contact eight pins in each row, 24 pins total.. (you want a 60ish pin lock, that is going to be one looong key) And it would likely be difficult to make a pick work with even more pins. But if enough pins are dummy pins, a process of elimination (binding pins/non binding pins) can be used to figure out where the pick tips need to be, again, more dummy pins=easier to pick.

Finally, you'll need to do something about bumping.. All of this is moot if a bump key can be custom made..

[marginal]

E4 and E5 being appart, we start inserting E4 into E5 slowly and in the same time inserting E1, E2, and E3 on each level (depth) of the lock.

Ah, okay... I see where I was misunderstanding. All the pins can be top-loaded from [u]outside the plug, and the outermost housing (D1) is the only thing that retains all of the pinstacks in the fully-assembled lock. (I assumed that Figure 5 showed the pinstacks as they would appear when the key was removed.)[/u]

Hi MacGyver101 and thank you for waking me up from time to time .
So, I did a mod on the drawing and the description.
They don't let me edit my initial post, so I am adding the latest files here.
Description: http://ubuntuone.com/589fL7CS67TsDJUhxTBNxv
Drawings: http://ubuntuone.com/13AKvgbNxaNghTel6YEDc8
The only modification is the drawing in Fig. 5 and its description.
It represents the cross-cut of the cylinder housing and plug assembly.
There's no key holding the top pins, they're held by the lock housing B2 and inserted one by one during the assemblt procedure.
By inserting the key in the lock, its ridges are pushing the dummy pins E6 to
the shear line, and the working pins E1 are pushed to the shear lines by the
key teeth A2 (sorry there's no visible difference between the dummy and the working pins, I didn't feel like making a new drawing at that moment).
Thanks again MacGyver101 and don't forget to contact me if this invention starts making money some day .
That goes for all of you who have contributed with practical advices.

[FarmerFreak]

"dummy pins/deepest cut" should be resting at the correct depth while resting against the outer housing. When it comes to picking that is a good thing because it will prevent a straight dimple pick from going underneath them and getting to the pins in the back!

If a pick has access to all of the pins, then the lock will be easier and easier with more and more dummy pins. The more pins that actually need to be lifted to be set the harder the lock is going to be to pick.

This is a conundrum as both of my comments are accurate. Which are you more afraid of, specialty picks or basic dimple picks?

[mh]

Description: http://ubuntuone.com/589fL7CS67TsDJUhxTBNxv
Drawings: http://ubuntuone.com/13AKvgbNxaNghTel6YEDc8
The only modification is the drawing in Fig. 5 and its description.
It represents the cross-cut of the cylinder housing and plug assembly.
There's no key holding the top pins, they're held by the lock housing B2 and inserted one by one during the assemblt procedure.
By inserting the key in the lock, its ridges are pushing the dummy pins E6 to
the shear line, and the working pins E1 are pushed to the shear lines by the
key teeth A2 (sorry there's no visible difference between the dummy and the working pins, I didn't feel like making a new drawing at that moment).

I added the links in your first post.
However, looking at Fig. 5, there's indeed no difference between "dummy" and "working" pins, and in fact, there's like no difference really: some pin stacks require a "tooth" of certain height (that's what you call E1) and some pin stacks require a "tooth" of 0 height (that's the sort of pin stack you call E6).
So your proposal is for a lock which has 50 active pin stacks - which will likely be difficult and time consuming to pick.

I would think that a working bump key could be made, though, from a tube with holes where the pins are.

And I'm also not sure which part of the lock could get a patent, there's a lot of prior art on pin tumbler locks, including those with screw-in keys.

Cheers
mh

[mh]

Here's likely some prior art, although the pictures went missing: viewtopic.php?f=9&t=16426

[marginal]

I've thought about this a bit more..

Size of the key. The key is going to be HUGE. I mean, even if you use small pins the diameter of the key is going to be what, an inch in diameter? Most people aren't going to want a key that size on their ring.. You did mention that this would probably be for safes. Which might not seem like a problem at first, but safe keys (for real safes, not wallmart special) are typically long (8-12") and thin. With new safes that may not be a problem because they could be manufactured with a larger hole, but it won't retrofit well into older safes without some serious drilling.

The key has to rotate when entering/exiting the lock. I don't think people wrists are going to like the extra twisting. You could have the head of the key rotate 180 degrees or however much is required so the user doesn't have to turn anything until the key is inserted all the way. Since the lock already has a return spring, taking the key back out shouldn't require any more twisting than a normal lock.

Just like MacGyver101 pointed out, don't see anything in your drawings to prevent the pins from extending all the way to the outer housing. Which means that your "dummy pins/deepest cut" should be resting at the correct depth while resting against the outer housing. When it comes to picking that is a good thing because it will prevent a straight dimple pick from going underneath them and getting to the pins in the back! It also means that the key will need to have holes in it for each one of those pins.

Picking. You asked how may one pick ten random pins (or more) among 50 (or more) in three spiral grooves (or more)? The spiral grooves are not as big of an issue as you may think. Remember that there is plenty of space in the keyway outside of those spiral grooves. Now, let's talk about picking pins for a second and let's try not to over complicate a simple process. When the lock is tensioned, a binding pin won't be springy and will need to be set. A non binding pin will be springy and can be left alone. Your dummy pins are still going to follow that basic principle, and they will always be springy (unless we screw up and lifts them up too high). If a pick has access to all of the pins, then the lock will be easier and easier with more and more dummy pins. The more pins that actually need to be lifted to be set the harder the lock is going to be to pick.

Specialty picks. Since a regular pick may or may not be able to get past the deepest cut pins in the lock. A specialty pick could be made for it. Pardon my very poorly done picture, it's just to give you the idea of how it could be done. I didn't draw the pick twisting the way it would have to be to go into the lock because I'm sure it wouldn't look right if I tried.. http://i669.photobucket.com/albums/vv59 ... 5/1-56.png That is an example of four pick tips, each one would go in between two pins and be push/pulled to lift and set those two pins. Obviously there would be three rows of pick tips like that.. I know what you are thinking, my picture only shows enough pick tips to contact eight pins in each row, 24 pins total.. (you want a 60ish pin lock, that is going to be one looong key) And it would likely be difficult to make a pick work with even more pins. But if enough pins are dummy pins, a process of elimination (binding pins/non binding pins) can be used to figure out where the pick tips need to be, again, more dummy pins=easier to pick.

Finally, you'll need to do something about bumping.. All of this is moot if a bump key can be custom made..

Hi FarmerFreak and thank you for adding your comments.

1. The key has to be big indeed, but that is why I already suggested, this has to be a safe lock (probably on new models as you mentioned), not a door one for instance.

2. A rotating key bow is a good idea, thank you .

3. I just did a modification in my previous post, will have to change the design of the key though, dimples instead of teeth ...

4. I think you're right when you say: "The spiral grooves are not as big of an issue as you may think".
But in that case, let's eliminate the dummy pins and have only real ones, how about it?
Of course they shouldn't be normal pins as the ones in the drawing, too easy to pick ...

[marginal]

And I'm also not sure which part of the lock could get a patent, there's a lot of prior art on pin tumbler locks, including those with screw-in keys.

Cheers
mh

Thank you mh, it seems my initial search on this design has not been extensive enough:-).
So, no more need to waste our time on this one I guess.
A little busy now, but will be back to read and answer the other posts.

Regards.