Axxess Home Depot Key Duplicators

[gswimfrk]

Hello All,

I was at the local Home Depot... I needed a key to be duplicated in a pinch (otherwise I usually visit a locksmith) and I noticed a sign on the duplicator. The sign stated that a small notch cut on the tip of the duplicate key is not a defect and is normal. Of course once my key was done I noticed a notch on the blade side of the tip, just like the sign described. The key was a 1st gen SC1 5 pin. The duplicate looked like a 6 pin key because of the extra notch cut near the tip. As you would expect, the key was crap. The spacing was off a little bit. Does anyone know why the Home Depot key machines do this? I know they are crap, however.

Thanks!

[GWiens2001]

The spacing was off a little bit. Does anyone know why the Home Depot key machines do this? I know they are crap, however.

Think you answered your own question right after you asked it!

Home Depot does not own the AXXESS machines. The company that owns them only recalibrates them when the absolutely have to.

Home Depot gets paid for each key cut, whether it works or not. They just turn in the incorrectly cut key, and get paid for it. Therefore Home Depot does not care.

Take your key to a locksmith, and get it cut right.

Gordon

[gswimfrk]

Thanks gordon! I guess my question should be... How much does the spacing usually have to be off for the key to not work. Say for example in Kwikset or Schlage locks.

[GWiens2001]

Not a whole lot, but a little you can get away with. It depends on the lock.

If you have a micrometer, measure from the shoulder to the center of each key cut on your original key, and on the copied key. That will tell you how far the spacing is. Then measure the depth of each cut on the original and on the copy, and that will tell you how far off the bitting is.

Gordon

[MrWizard]

Home Depot is the "AXXESS" of evil.

On Schlage keys it is more picky as they have better tolerances and the bottom of the cuts are a V where as a Kwikset has a flat bottoms and wider. If the Kwikset is factory keyed with flat bottom pins the spacing would be more critical than if the Kwikset was rekeyed with standard universal pins that come to a point would be way more forgiving. The spacing would only need to be measured from the shoulder to the center of the first cut. As all other cuts cannot be off anymore from each other than the first cut is from the shoulder unless it is a key that needs to be gauged from the tip.

I have never had the misfortune of getting a key cut from home depot but find it interesting the spacing would be off as most spacing is a fixed setting not one that moves around.

I'll have to take a look at the AXXESS of evil machines they use next time I'm in there.

Richard

[Evan]

The AXXESS key machines don't allow the machine operator to ensure things are lined up properly before pressing the launch button and wasting a blank...

A worn cartridge will allow an original or blank to slip and cause the fore/aft spacing issue...

The small "notch cut" near the tip means that either the alignment of the original and duplicate was way off OR that the AXXESS SC1 keyblanks are made longer than SC1 spec, it is not normal and shows a poorly produced duplicate key...

Since I have produced tens of thousands of duplicate keys and originated around the same number using OEM factory blanks and a code machine in my past employment I feel I know enough about the process of copying a key to state such things as a matter of fact...

The AXXESS machines allow unskilled sales workers who know more about hand tools and screws/bolts and door hardware (the department where the machines are typically located) to quickly produce a duplicated key through trial and error...

An actual skilled key duplicator can look at a duplicate key and the original and should be able to tell if the key will work just by eye, a bad key just doesn't look right and such a person will also be able to evaluate the key given to copy to detect if it is too worn for tracer duplication...

~~ Evan

[Sinifar]

How far does a key have to be off? That depends. Mostly they should be about + or - .002 or so. Mostly closer. this is how pin kits work. You CAN get away with being off somewhat due to the "radius arc" of the barrel. That is the thing has to turn off center, and it will work if you are off a bit. Which is why .005 pins work. They are not really close to a lot of manufacturers pins sizes, like Corbin - Russwin / Emhart. Also Arrow and Sargent are off with .005 pins. This is why .003 pins were developed. Although they still are off a bit, but much closer.

However, home, read that retail locks can work up to -.010 some more. Like Weiser. That will work out .015.

Spacing is critical. If your spacing is off, then the pin rests on either the opening or closing ramp. That is the "steeple" between cuts. This will also throw the thing off.

ALSO many deep cuts cause the key to ride up as the cutter draws the key blank in, thus ruining the key. I have seen recently a Sargent key where the first two cuts should have been 7 - 8 - 4 - x - x and it gauged out to 8 - 9 - 4.5 - x - x towards the the next one down. The " x - x' cuts were dead on and high. In a .020 system this means the cuts were ,010 off, and worse this was a master key, sectional. Try to pin new cylinders with this! Nightmares.

Just for your reference - Kwikset - Shoulder to first cut - .247 / between cuts .150 // Titan shoulder to first .097, spacing between .150 // Cuts - 1 - .329 / 2 - .306 / 3 - .283 / 4 - .260 / 5 - .237 / 6 - .214 and 7 we don't talk about because it not seen in retail locks, it is used for MK work only.

Schlage - Shoulder to first cut - .231 / between cuts .156 / Cuts - 0 - .335 / 1 - .320 / 2 - .305 / 3 - .290 / 4 - .275 / 5 - .260 / 6 - .245 / 7 - .230 / 8 - .215 / 9 - .200

Just for giggles - Sargent Sectional - .020 Increments - Shoulder to first .216 / between cuts - .156 / Cuts - 1 - .328 / 2 - .308 / 3 - .288 / 4 - .268 / 5 - .248 / 6 - .228 / 7 - .208 / 8 - .188 / 9 - .168 / 0 - .148 / and X is the same as "0".

A dial caliper is the handiest thing in the shop when working with worn keys. You can mike up the cuts and then add from there to get the next one up which usually will fix the problem. However, if the key is like the one I mentioned above, you need to catch the fact that the key rode up when it was being cut, and the first few cuts are off, due to the key blank being drawn into the cutter. One solution is to put a piece of folded paper under the pattern key and build it up a few thousands, then cut the new key from the "built up key". This has been the solution for ages for worn out keys.

With "laser cut keys" without steeples, you are on your own. They will work being off. Just the cuts need to be somewhat dead on.

Solution - ALWAYS tighten the key in securely. If you want to gauge how tight, you should not be able to pull the key out of the holding vise.

Just my experience.

Sinifar

[Evan]

Solution - ALWAYS tighten the key in securely. If you want to gauge how tight, you should not be able to pull the key out of the holding vise.

It sounds like you have never seen the AXXESS plus key machines...

The machines use cassettes/cartridges which pop into slots/bays in the front of the machine, along with a "tester" section which has plastic keyholes that the machine operator can test the supplied key to see which blank to use, the keyholes are color coded to tell the operator which set of cartridges to use to make the key...

Nothing gets tightened... The keys are pushed into the face of the cartridges much in the same way an electrician can wire a receptacle by backstabbing terminals...

~~ Evan