Falle-Safe Question

[Hollywood]

Hey All,

would falle-safe sell these picks to a Director of Maintenance of a Hospital.

I would really enjoy having a set of these and I know that Falle-Safe just sells to certain people in certain professions and I was interested in finding out if they woul sell to a Director of Maintenance for a hospital.

Anyone know by chance?

[pinky]

if you email them and tell them what you do, and state they are for use by your team in the hospital, they will probably agree to sell you the non restricted tools, these are only available to certain government and law enforcement departments.

what picks are you looking at, if the hand pick set or bs picks i doubt you will have a problem, email them through www.safeventures.com

[Hollywood]

I was looking at the Basic set.
also what is the price for USA
I do know what the current exchange is.

[frostbyte]

http://www.xe.com/ucc/

[pinky]

safeventures charge £120 , though mark bates sells this as does phil shearer, both safe engineers in the states

[MrB]

What is it about these tools that makes sense of restricting their sale to government or law enforcement agencies?

Is it the knowledge of the dimensions, or the difficulty of manufacture, or the availability of construction materials, or the instructions for how to use them, or what...?

Because for mechanical tools, it would seem that anything that can be sold can be made, and if it can be made then restricting the sale of it is pointless?

Or am I missing something?

[pinky]

there are plenty of reasons for restricting these tools, from that fact that some are not commercialy viable for a locksmith to buy, lock manufacturers would do anything to prevent their release as many are too good at what they do, and 3 governments would not want these tools to fall into wrong hands.
when a safe pick can open a bank vault in under 6 minutes this type of tool should not be made generaly available, some tools are not complicated but are very simple, if released they would reach the net and be copied , more potential for wrong doers.
and finaly many tools are commissioned by government for government use only, it is the government that restrict them.

if these tools were easily replicated then it wouldnt just be john falle and safeventures that make and sell them, we would all be making them, but we dont all have up to £60k to spend on developing a new tool that locksmiths may not buy as a drill is a cheaper option, sad but cheap.

[MrB]

Hmmm, this is sort of the security by obscurity argument. By restricting their sale, it keeps the tools away from 90% of the people, or maybe 99%.

I think the biggest difficulty with making tools to open safes and bank vaults is you have to have unrestricted access to examine the safe or vault beforehand. Since these things are pretty expensive and not easy to look at when uninvited, the opportunity to design bypass tools is pretty limited.

I suspect the edge John Falle has is the opportunity spend time studying and dismantling the articles in question.

[pinky]

in some circumstances , but not in vaults , these locks are openly available, in fact i have a number of vault locks , both key and combo, i have in depth photos of vault doors and dimensions, i can pick a chubb isolator lock in about 30 minutes, safeventures do this in 5 to 6 mins with a different tool.

any one of us can buy the locks to study, though they are expensive.
john falles tools are almost all picks not bypass tools, though benny wells , one of the safeventures team, is able to put a scope into the keyway, read the lever belly and cut the key in approx 5 mins, now surely we can all do this, or are some people just gifted.

[MrB]

That is illuminating, thank you.

I'm off to spend more time learning up on this stuff.

[32768]

when a safe pick can open a bank vault in under 6 minutes this type of tool should not be made generaly available

See, I'd think that if a safe pick can open a bank vault in under 6 minutes, then it's time to get a new lock for your vault. And I'm not just trying to be glib. Sort of like how everyone's replacing S&G 8088's now.

I don't mean to reopen the age-old obscurity vs. openness battle, but if I had a choice between buying a lock which can be quickly opened with the correct tool or one that isn't, I know which I'd choose. Of course, since even that information is often restricted I can't make an informed choice... But this has been hashed through before here.

Coincidently, I'm writing this while taking a break from mounting up the S&G 6730 that came in the mail today. It's looking to be a good weekend- now if I could only find where I left that stepper motor controller..