Deadbolt: can I get anything better for the price?

[GordonAlexander]

You mentioned you have already beefed up the strike, that is great. Security strikes with long screws do their job. As far as a deadbolt, I personally use Maxims with M3 cylinders. I know locksport people will say M3 is not secure because of Open in 30 seconds, but those guys are pros and spent 18 months on defeating the three levels of security. And, I have yet to see it in action on a fully pinned lock. I'm sure it's possible, but no one is really picking M3 in my area. Literally, no one. I am a locksmith and I open Maxims occasionally. I drill them, and it is no fun. The hardened inserts make drilling the cylinder a pain, and properly installed Maxim with ball bearings make drilling the screws a pain. Maxim is the way to go.

Hercular from Mul-t-lok is another great deadbolt. I too have seen the youtube videos of them being bumped, but I don't trust these locks are fully, or properly pinned. I have seen them picked, but only with solid pins. I know it's possible to pick them with interior and exterior pins, but I haven't seen it actually done. And, it requires a special pick.

660 is a decent deadbolt, but for $100 more you can get the drill, bump and pick protection of a Medeco. 660 will accept many cylinders, Primus probably being the most secure, but it has it's own limitations as mentioned in another comment in this thread.

As far as your windows; In a condo you won't be allowed to place bars on them. A security laminate is your only option I think.

If you want to go all out on the door, you could install surface mounted flush bolts on the top and bottom for when you are home. Take into consideration you have to do multiple processes to open the door in the event of an emergency. Imagine a fire where smoke and fumes have to be dealt with while you perform these processes in a diminished capacity. If you have children or elderly in your residence, no way you should put flush bolts on it.

My final recommendation would be a Maxim deadbolt($220-$280), either double sided or a captive thumbturn(if there is a window nearby). The laminate will make it difficult for a crook to bust through, and it will give you time to arm yourself, so really I like to see single sided deadbolts on condos. But that's your call.

A big scary dog is the best security in my opinion, followed by a monitored alarm. Nosey neighbors are great, but not too many people you can depend on nowadays. If you want to go ultra paranoid, install exit locks(only a thumbturn on the inside, nothing outside) on the top and bottom of the door. Again, in the event of emergency you don't want to perform multiple processes in a diminished capacity.

Good luck! I'm sure we would all love to see pics of the inside of your door when you are finished!

[zeke79]

I was aware of this, but I thought this is primarily a concern for (bigger) masterkey systems. (where it makes it does make it much easier to escalate rights.)
My thought was: without doubt, it's a possible problem, but my idea was that for a "normal" house the security is "bleeding from so many wounds" (in this case unsecured windows for example) that I did not found the possibility of repeated sidebar coding to be too much of an issue.
Plus I thought abusing the sidebar coding is a rather sophisticated attack, not too typical of the average criminal who kicks in the door or so.
So while this is undoubtedly something to consider, do you think this is (or should be) a concern to average home users? (I mean this as a genuine question, not rhetorical one . This is something I myself was vacillating on. )


So I agree that is is not really top of the range high security (not comparable to bilock or abloy as you mentioned), but I thought in this case cost was a more important factor than truly high security. (Abloy and bilock level)

You are correct, on a home it is not the end of the world. My opinion however is that if he can afford primus then he can likely save a few dollars going with bilock and not even have the potential problem. Using the logic you posted above there is no reason for any home owner to have more than a quality standard pin tumbler system.

[ARF-GEF]

My opinion however is that if he can afford primus then he can likely save a few dollars going with bilock and not even have the potential problem.

Yeah if we view it from that angle you are right

Using the logic you posted above there is no reason for any home owner to have more than a quality standard pin tumbler system.

Well I definitely did not mean to go that far, but (despite the fact that I LOVE neat, clever and sophisticated high security locks) I would say most of the people don't need ultra neat stuff like Abloy or Bilock. They are fantastic and amazing, I really like them, but they are an overkill for an average home's shabby door next to a row of unprotected windows.
Don't get me wrong, there is definitely many reasons to have a better lock than a quality pin tumbler, it's just that in some cases putting in a high security lock does not provide such significant plus in overall security as the price is high.
This is not a general rule, but I thought this was the case here
Again, this is only my opinion.

My logic is that here most break-ins don't happen with attacking the lock, (i.e. bump keys or picking/raking), but with sheer force (kicking in or prying open a door, breaking the badly installed euro profile locks off) even drilling is rare.
Even with the low level of average locks.
It would be better if everyone had a nice lock, but often here (in eastern Europe) the budget is tight and it's a nice accomplishment if you can persuade the people to get a half decent lock.
I guess this comes down to how much money the person can/is willing to spend.

I always recommend people to get as good a lock as they can afford, since they are so durable that it is a long term investment (where a few bucks more won't count), but for example many cheaper flats here (built in the socialism) have literally (lacked double layered insuated, but) plywood doors...
I don't too much point in putting a bilock on those.

[zeke79]

LMAO. I think i should have put a smiley at the end of my last post. I wasnt trying to debate with you, I was just giving you a hard time . I knew exactly what you meant and thought you would catch my sarcasm but re-reading it I can see how it could be read as me being an arsehole which wasnt my intention.

[ARF-GEF]

Well I didn't get the sarcasm but it's not your fault. I'm not too good at getting too delicate stuff in foreign languages. :S
That's the hardest bit, to get the nuances right.
But the positive part is that I did not found you sounded like an arsehole at all. So it all flew over my head and altogether I thought that is not an unreasonable point you raised at all(that no need for high security can be a bit of slippery slope).

[miguelmonk]

I got prices from a local locksmith (Orange County, CA, USA) for two deadbolt locks with a total of six keys for each of the Medeco, Mul-T-Lock, and Schlage Primus brands. The quotes were, not including 8% sales tax, $475.60 for Medeco, $479.50 for Schlage, and $518.56 for Mul-T-Lock. My discussion of those locks did not mean that I could afford them, it's just what was being recommended.

The reason I came here is because I did not want to pay $500 for two locks, especially because I will be installing them myself. I thought that my post was OK tagging onto this OP's post, due to the "can I get anything better for the price" subject. If I should start a new post, please let me know.

Several people have recommended Abloy or BiLock, so I contacted an online dealer in SF, CA, and he said he doesn't sell BiLock any more due to them breaking inside. Too bad, they would have saved a lot of money. He only sells Abloy for high-end locks. I need to review an email he sent me with hybrid options.

Also, I cannot believe that such high-dollar locks don't come with a lifetime warranty on the finish for residential users. Even my $25 Kwikset deadbolt has that...although lacking a wee bit in the other areas!

Thank you everyone for all the info. I will keep digging.

[ARF-GEF]

Minguelmocnk try ebay and get some deadbolt there. You can later on have a locki install a different core (if you wish so keyed alike) installed in them.

If you plan on continuing this discussion I believe it would result in neater "picture" if you started a new thread. If you ask a mod nicely he may move your prveious post to there
Though I'm not a mod so I'm not too clear about the actual possibilities

Well I'm not sure, I don't have too much experience with bilock, but I always heard they were good. Maybe there was other reason to why he doesn't sell it any longer, but did not want to tell it to a customer.

As for the warranty: Yes I myself am quite surprised that so many high end lock come with such short warranty. Abloys here have a ridiculous 1 year warranty...
I believe (but I'm not sure and momentarily I want to go to sleep so I'm too lazy to look it up) DOM and KESO offers a lifetime warranty in heir higher end products (against manufacturing defects that is)
Not that an Abloy should only survive 1 year.
I do not really have experience with actually using a protec, but I know many people here do. What is an average (or "normal") life expectancy and life-time of an Abloy protec?
I think the maker claims 100 000 openings or so.

[Evan]

I got prices from a local locksmith (Orange County, CA, USA) for two deadbolt locks with a total of six keys for each of the Medeco, Mul-T-Lock, and Schlage Primus brands. The quotes were, not including 8% sales tax, $475.60 for Medeco, $479.50 for Schlage, and $518.56 for Mul-T-Lock. My discussion of those locks did not mean that I could afford them, it's just what was being recommended.

LOL... Installing a $240 Grade 1 deadbolt on a non-grade one door without a welded steel doorframe = waste of your money... Your door is likely to fail and leave the locked lock projecting from its bent and twisted remnant edge...

You seem to be worried more about picking and key control... So buy a deadbolt platform that is not total flashy overkill which would attract the attention of someone who can read between the lines... I would recommend a Kaba Ilco Mortise Deadbolt and purchase and install it with the appropriately sized mortise cylinder of your choice from amongst the high security offerings... This deadbolt may be known by some as the Lori deadbolt as that was the name of the company which used to make it before Kaba Ilco absorbed it...

~~ Evan

[miguelmonk]

With my setup, aside from windows, the door will be the weakness as the frame is very reinforced with plywood, steel plates, and 3" screws. I have Mini Door Shields on the way to prevent(?) the door from splitting at the lock areas and hinges so that my door will be as strong as I reasonably can make it without replacing it. As noted before, a Don-Jo wrap-around would not fit.

My worry is mainly about bumping. If I am not going to buy a bump-resistant lock, then I may as well use $30 Home Depot Kwikset locks. I just don't want some punk to get in because I left an easy-to-bump lock in the door...after he breaks his foot trying to kick in the door.

I will let this post be my last on the subject so the mods don't want to shoot me.

Thank you for all the input!

Gregg

[MBI]

I will let this post be my last on the subject so the mods don't want to shoot me.

Thank you for all the input!

Gregg

No worries. It's been a long time since I shot anyone.

[miguelmonk]

"No worries. It's been a long time since I shot anyone."

Perhaps, but how long has it been since you WANTED to do it?

Thank you again. Great forum here. My brain is oozing out of my ears after packing it with all this information.

Gregg

[Evan]

My worry is mainly about bumping. If I am not going to buy a bump-resistant lock, then I may as well use $30 Home Depot Kwikset locks. I just don't want some punk to get in because I left an easy-to-bump lock in the door...after he breaks his foot trying to kick in the door.

How many whacks with a 20 pound sledgehammer do you think it would take to split your door ?

It is not worth wasting money on trying to make a door that is not designed to be durable into something with cobbled armor plating which actually weakens the door with all the screws you have used to attach those plates to it...

If you absolutely need to do this for whatever reason you should not waste money on locks but instead be looking for a replacement fire rated all steel door before considering what to lock it with...

~~ Evan

[miguelmonk]

Evan,

"How many whacks with a 20 pound sledgehammer...?" Enough to alert multiple neighbors to come outside and to make people across the street see what is happening. I am not afraid of a loud entry attempt. It is the "quiet, walk up to the door and bump a lock in 5 seconds so it looks like a normal entry" that concerns me.

The only additional screws into the door would be two small ones into the edge to hold the Mini Door Shields in place, or I could hold them in place with caulking compound. All they need to do is keep the door from splitting at the locks and at least one hinge.

You may as well be asking how long I think a buzz saw would take to get through the door...I assume just a few seconds, but it would be very noisy. I suppose they could just stuff some C4 along the hinges and locks and blow that door you mentioned right into the next county...but it's going to be noisy, difficult, and time consuming, which is the point here...to delay them long enough to hope they give up and move on.

Even if I bought a "fire rated all steel door" and had a Grade 3 Kwiset on it, it would do no good. I'd still have to look into which lock for it, so there is no time or money wasted there.

If I have a hard-to-bump lock that makes them stand at the door and be conspicuous for several minutes or make lots of noisy repeatedly kicking or hammering the door, they likely will seek an easier target, which is the goal...to make them leave. If the bastiges want in badly enough, NOTHING will stop them. I am trying to make it REASONABLY difficult to get in. Hence the reinforced door frame, at least a Grade 1 lock to replace my old Grade 3 Kwikset deadbolt, and strengthening the door enough to deter an amateur attacker.

Gregg

[Evan]

LOL...

You seem to think that it is impossible to distract even the most nosy of neighbors...

I know of a condo that was burglarized in 5 minutes with a flashy lock on the door by means of sledgehammer -- nobody heard the two bangs (based on the number of dents in what was left of the door) over the sound of the fire alarm system that the burglar activated first... 90dB of noise in each unit usually has people putting their hands over their ears and looking for fire...

Just saying here that it is not impossible to accomplish and the crook that did it blended into the crowd that gathered around the three fire trucks that came to investigate the alarm and was long gone before anyone noticed the break in...

~~ Evan

[miguelmonk]

Last post on this subject, Evan. I will not engage in a urinary tract strength contest here.

As stated previous, I have done my steps "...so that my door will be as strong as I reasonably can make it without replacing it." I have repeatedly stated that my goal is to take REASONABLE steps to prevent a break-in.

As noted previously, if they want in, NOTHING will step them. Not a steel fire door, not seven feet of concrete and a vault door, NOTHING.

Again, REASONABLE steps to prevent it.

Gregg