Thinking of upgrading your door security? Getting a better deadbolt or padlock? Getting a new frame or better hinges? Not sure what brand or model to go with for your particular application? Need a recommendation? Feel free to ask for advice here!
by CyberBeaR » 1 Aug 2013 15:23
Hello all! I am a newbie to this forum and am here to ask you, experts, of what should I do.
I work in a Psychiatrical Hospital and our patients give us quite a hard time with padlocks and door locks. Some time ago they were inserting toothpicks inside the keyhole of padlocks and door locks and breaking them there, we had to change them all. Every month we spend a little bit shy of $1,000 only with door locks, keys, padlocks...
Do you guys have any idea of an alternative that we can implement that isn't a BIG investment and that won't give us a constant headache?
Thanks a lot!
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CyberBeaR
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by zeke79 » 1 Aug 2013 15:30
If you can find a locksmith that has some new old stock you could give maxis locks a shot. Probably not the best idea since maxis is no longer in business but they are pretty hard for someone to screw up. Possibly abloy disclock but i am not sure how those do compared to the classic abloy which will not be an option for cylinder locks. Abloy classic would however be an excellent solution for padlocks. My take on the issue is thorazine is alot cheaper than upgrading locks  .
For the best book out there on high security locks and their operation, take a look at amazon.com for High-Security Mechanical Locks An Encyclopedic Reference. Written by our very own site member Greyman! A true 5 Star read!!
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zeke79
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by Evan » 1 Aug 2013 15:34
@CyberBeaR:
What are your specific job responsibilities at this Psychiatric Hospital ?
How come you had to replace all the locks, it sounds like it would be really easy for someone who knows what they are doing and has the correct tool to remove the toothpicks from the locks unless there is some aspect to the insertions which you have not disclosed...
What specific brand/type of door locks and padlocks are in use at your facility ?
If you stand back for a second and think about the problem at hand, yours seems not to be one of locking hardware at all, but a staffing issue where the clients/patients are not being adequately supervised both in that they are allowed to possess toothpicks and then vandalize the security hardware...
SOLUTION: Eliminate the supply of toothpicks and your problem will end...
~~ Evan
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by CyberBeaR » 1 Aug 2013 15:55
Evan, My job is actually administrative, I'm in charge of the buying administration, reduce costs, etc. We had to replace the locks that had toothpicks broken inside as we were told by our Key Supplier that we'd spend more in the maintenance of these locks than buying new ones, at least from them. We are from Brazil so I doubt you will recognize the brand of our locks, but most of them are from Papaiz http://www.papaiz.com.br/. I can completely agree with you that our problem is mostly of underqualified staff that doesn't supervise adequately our patients, however in Brazil our Labor Laws protect the worker in such a manner that we have to take care of how we handle and can't simply fire them except when there was a serious bad conduct of the employee (and even in these cases we might face a law sue in which the Labor Judge will favor the worker). Plus it's not like everyone wants to apply to a job here to handle daily with our patients, since most people are afraid of them, so although we try to hire not many apply to the job.
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CyberBeaR
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by Evan » 1 Aug 2013 16:28
Step One: Find a new "key supplier" who isn't out to squeeze a big steady account to replace locks that aren't actually broken...
Step Two: Hire a locksmith to work at your facility daily, $1,000 a month on locks that just need the broken toothpicks removed is silly, not to mention the downtime from the disruption...
Step Three: STOP buying toothpicks, confiscate and rescind all current stock of toothpicks and purge the entire facility of every last toothpick...
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by spoonzor » 1 Aug 2013 18:52
rfid + electric locs? Possible to hide the readers completely in the wall.
Downside: if the electricity fails and you don't have some backup system all the doors will open. luckily this kind of system could run on a couple of old car batteries, so to say.
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by Squelchtone » 2 Aug 2013 8:40
[ADMIN EDIT: Moved this thread to the proper area -Squelchtone]
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by ARF-GEF » 2 Aug 2013 17:48
Never knew papaiz was Brazilian. Cool  RFID would be a big investment but a good solution. Downside: if the electricity fails and you don't have some backup system all the doors will open.
That depends on your requremetns you there is possibility to have electronic locks which stay closed when they loose power. But then I think of fire in a hopsital... Magnetic locks would be a good idea as well. Probably requires less investment too. I would defo get in contact a few lockies near you, both for recommendations and to look into how much others would ask. But be very careful sometimes chepa things are the most expensive (replacing reparing). So the chepest offesr usually get extra scrutiny. (qulity traust and so on)
To infinity... and beyond!
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by spoonzor » 2 Aug 2013 20:28
haha, I don't think keeping all the doors locked in case of power failure is a good idea, in any case. Even in some modern jails the doors will open if there is a fire...
Magnetic locks are a good idea, but require more generator/ battery power to keep working after power failure.
Training a couple of the more lucid patients to repair locks and replace the broken one with repaired one is the cheapest and in my opinion best solution. Give them something useful to do, teach them a skill they can use in real live after they are discharged from the hospital. It's not hard to learn how to remove toothpicks from locks if you have the right tools. In most cases I think you will manage even without taking the lock apart.
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by CyberBeaR » 3 Aug 2013 0:06
I have to say that I got VERY interested in bembem's idea of having magnetic padlocks, I didn't even know they existed. Can anyone pinpoint me some manufacturers?
Evan, regarding our toothpick supply.. We don't have any. We have absolutely no idea how they manage to get them. We can't control this unfortunately, even their families when come to visit sometimes smuggle cigars and matches (and we do search them before allowing the visit, because if they bring drugs the whole treatment needs to start over).
And while we're still talking about those toothpicks, as much as it'd be great to be able to repair the locks, sometimes when there is an urgent matter we can't wait for this to happen, so they just break the lock.. You'd be surprised of how many things these patients break lol, we have our own maintenance crew that has about 5 employees..
Spoonzor, I believe that RFID's are too expensive to give it a chance, as if by any means they find a way to break it then that would be a big investment down the drain..
Do they make magnetic locks for doors to or is it only for padlocks? They break a lot of door handles (not only patients but employees too!), so if there was a magnetic lock we could change the handle model for one that would be much more sturdier not handle per se, but a fixed one that wouldn't need to be twisted to open (pardon me as I do not know the name of what I'm trying to express).
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CyberBeaR
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by spoonzor » 3 Aug 2013 12:17
rfid can be pretty cheap (comparing to replacing all the locks every month), I think installation cost the most, so if you have your own team to do it. But yeah, to make it unbreakable is gonna cost...
Magnetic padlocks, if you are talking about the type without a key-way, that just pull the pins up with a magnet, if they can get cigars in, they can surly get a magnet, even by taking a small radio apart... But, no toothpicks in the lock.
First i was thinking about the electric magnetic lock (in combination with rfid), misunderstanding.
Another option: camera's. When you break it you pay it. Low quality camera's are very cheap, you just point them at the door, nowhere else, then it's not a huge privacy issue.
If you have a 5 man strong maintenance team i would consider training them to repair locks. But maybe they are very busy already.
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spoonzor
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by Evan » 3 Aug 2013 15:09
CyberBeaR wrote:I have to say that I got VERY interested in bembem's idea of having magnetic padlocks, I didn't even know they existed. Can anyone pinpoint me some manufacturers?
Evan, regarding our toothpick supply.. We don't have any. We have absolutely no idea how they manage to get them. We can't control this unfortunately, even their families when come to visit sometimes smuggle cigars and matches (and we do search them before allowing the visit, because if they bring drugs the whole treatment needs to start over).
And while we're still talking about those toothpicks, as much as it'd be great to be able to repair the locks, sometimes when there is an urgent matter we can't wait for this to happen, so they just break the lock.. You'd be surprised of how many things these patients break lol, we have our own maintenance crew that has about 5 employees..
Spoonzor, I believe that RFID's are too expensive to give it a chance, as if by any means they find a way to break it then that would be a big investment down the drain..
Do they make magnetic locks for doors to or is it only for padlocks? They break a lot of door handles (not only patients but employees too!), so if there was a magnetic lock we could change the handle model for one that would be much more sturdier not handle per se, but a fixed one that wouldn't need to be twisted to open (pardon me as I do not know the name of what I'm trying to express).
If the vandalism is that dire of a situation it might be time to implement a non-contact visitation policy as is the case in higher security correctional facilities... You as the facility administration should be able to control what comes and goes inside your building, if you can not keep something like toothpicks out, how can you be sure you don't have patients/clients who have weapons cached somewhere inside your facility... While it seems like a joke to be discussing this over the issue of toothpicks, it is a symptom of the larger issue that you are not in control and the inmates appear to be running the asylum... If you are destroying hardware at the rate you claim to be, then you spec'd and installed the wrong grade of hardware... If you are using the heaviest duty hardware possible and still have this issue, it is time to shift over to correctional/prison grade fixtures and end the problem once and for all... It is nice that you have a maintenance crew of 5 employees, but if they are baffled by how to remove a toothpick from a lock, they do not possess all of the skills required to operate your facility... Seek out and hire a 6th maintenance employee who understands and has skills repairing locks if you are unable to make major policy changes to eliminate the problems -- otherwise you WILL be spending more money than you need to as you go forward breaking locks that have been vandalized... How many patients does this facility serve ? Are the 5 employees you described only responsible for general repairs to the buildings, or are they skilled tradesmen as well (plumbing, electrical, etc) ? Doe theses 5 employees also handle the groundskeeping/landscaping work as well ? ~~ Evan
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by CarsonReidDavis » 3 Aug 2013 23:05
CyberBear,
I've had a bad experience with magnetic padlocks. I have the same Genii pictured in the wikipedia article and it is very unreliable. At first it worked great, and was very cool, but after about 20 uses it no longer opened consistently. It would be horrible if I depended on it, because it only opens about 1 out of every 3 times I try. Also, if you shake the padlock properly while playing with the shackle you can get it to open without a key. I'm not sure if it is just my particular lock or brand that is bad (the lock was fairly cheap) or if it is a fundamental design flaw. Hopefully some other members can chime in on this subject.
As a fun side note, my parents just moved into an older house in East Tennessee, and they have Papaiz locks on their doors. Also, I was visiting one of the local locksmiths here in Florence, AL last week, and was surprised to see that he had 3 Papaiz cylinders on his workbench.
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by dll932 » 6 Aug 2013 15:39
There are any number of padlocks that operate with number wheels-Master comes to mind. They can be changed at will and don't cost a great deal. Of course this would imply patients are not allowed to see the combination. Otherwise, RFID (swipe cards, etc) sound like the solution to the doors. It's worth the price in the long run.
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