Need to install a hidden deadbolt, looking for tips

[Squelchtone]

You mentioned using a Lori deadbolt. Someone mentioned that it would flop around too much - yes it would. But the flopping might be stopped.

Install the bolt and housing normally but without drilling completely through the outer skin of the door.
Get a piece of flat steel larger than the hole the Lori case was installed through.
Cut a hole just the exact diameter of the mortise cylinder.
Install the mortise cylinder through the hole in the flat plate and secure it with a screw on cylinder nut. Some inside/outside spacers will probably be required.
Screw the plate and cylinder into the Lori case.
Attach the plate to the door surface with screws. (one-ways or tamper resistant)
Tighten the set screw to prevent any cylinder turning.

The cylinder locked in place and screwed to the door will stabilize the Lori bolt and case.
Good luck.

That's a good plan, but it will not be as hidden as I would like. I'd like no sign of locks on the outside of the door =) keep em guessin!

I guess I COULD mortise in a lever set which uses case screws to keep the lock case in the door, and then just screw a cylinder into it from the inside and attach a lever/handle/knob.

Squelchtone

[Evan]

I guess I COULD mortise in a lever set which uses case screws to keep the lock case in the door, and then just screw a cylinder into it from the inside and attach a lever/handle/knob.

Squelchtone

Or you could use a full mortise lock case deadbolt but I still think there are egress issues, if the person with the store insists on something other than a listed exit device of some sort, ask them to obtain written clearance to install that other type of locking device from the fire inspector's office of the AHJ...

~~ Evan

[Squelchtone]

I guess I COULD mortise in a lever set which uses case screws to keep the lock case in the door, and then just screw a cylinder into it from the inside and attach a lever/handle/knob.

Squelchtone

Or you could use a full mortise lock case deadbolt but I still think there are egress issues, if the person with the store insists on something other than a listed exit device of some sort, ask them to obtain written clearance to install that other type of locking device from the fire inspector's office of the AHJ...

~~ Evan

I mentioned in my first initial post not to worry about this... But do tell me one thing, there are 3 doors on that floor in and out of the 1 story business, does every door need to be a fire exit? Can't a business have a loading dock door that does not have a crash bar? I honestly think some fire chiefs and inspectors get wayyy too over zealous when it comes to this stuff.

Squelchtone

[zeke79]

Every door must have egress. An overhead loading door is one thing but any standard door has to have egress. He can do anything he wants. If a fire and someone is hurt or killed he will be liable. You can put whatever you like on there hardware wise but to be in code it CANNOT require a key for a person to exit a structure.

Same situation with homes. It is against code to install a double cylinder deadbolt on doors exiting the structure.

[keysman]

The half bolt mentioned above for hotel connecting room doors is also available keyed on the inside. Schlage part number B664



Keysman

[Evan]

I guess I COULD mortise in a lever set which uses case screws to keep the lock case in the door, and then just screw a cylinder into it from the inside and attach a lever/handle/knob.

Squelchtone

Or you could use a full mortise lock case deadbolt but I still think there are egress issues, if the person with the store insists on something other than a listed exit device of some sort, ask them to obtain written clearance to install that other type of locking device from the fire inspector's office of the AHJ...

~~ Evan

I mentioned in my first initial post not to worry about this... But do tell me one thing, there are 3 doors on that floor in and out of the 1 story business, does every door need to be a fire exit? Can't a business have a loading dock door that does not have a crash bar? I honestly think some fire chiefs and inspectors get wayyy too over zealous when it comes to this stuff.

Squelchtone

Commercial occupancies have much higher safety requirements for egress... Some jurisdictions even require that doors are posted with signage "This door to remain unlocked during occupancy"...

Ask far as what zeke79 has said, in commercial structures the requirement for door hardware is single motion egress and any delayed egress device must be approved by the local AHJ...

The exit doors need not have a panic exit device but any man door leading to outside must allow exit at all times without the use of a key and must be single motion (i.e. no separate deadbolt or second lock to operate before door will open)...

~~ Evan

[Evan]

Every door must have egress. An overhead loading door is one thing but any standard door has to have egress. He can do anything he wants. If a fire and someone is hurt or killed he will be liable. You can put whatever you like on there hardware wise but to be in code it CANNOT require a key for a person to exit a structure.

Same situation with homes. It is against code to install a double cylinder deadbolt on doors exiting the structure.

Someone need not be hurt or killed in a fire for a person or business to be held criminally liable for fire code violations -- this is why there are inspections, but any sort of incident that has the fire department at the building could trigger a citation and some violations by their nature rise to being criminal negligence and/or reckless endangerment...

~~ Evan

[dll932]

Yes I would use a Detex they have a couple that doesn't go all the way across the door that would work and be compliant.

http://www.detex.com/Product.aspx?id=2148

Detex is a good call, but should be through-bolted for strength.

[dll932]

Every door must have egress. An overhead loading door is one thing but any standard door has to have egress. He can do anything he wants. If a fire and someone is hurt or killed he will be liable. You can put whatever you like on there hardware wise but to be in code it CANNOT require a key for a person to exit a structure.

Same situation with homes. It is against code to install a double cylinder deadbolt on doors exiting the structure.

Usually only in multi-unit dwellings (but local code may say otherwise). These are houses and apartments I'm talking about, not businesses.

[dll932]

I guess I COULD mortise in a lever set which uses case screws to keep the lock case in the door, and then just screw a cylinder into it from the inside and attach a lever/handle/knob.

Squelchtone

Or you could use a full mortise lock case deadbolt but I still think there are egress issues, if the person with the store insists on something other than a listed exit device of some sort, ask them to obtain written clearance to install that other type of locking device from the fire inspector's office of the AHJ...

~~ Evan

I mentioned in my first initial post not to worry about this... But do tell me one thing, there are 3 doors on that floor in and out of the 1 story business, does every door need to be a fire exit? Can't a business have a loading dock door that does not have a crash bar? I honestly think some fire chiefs and inspectors get wayyy too over zealous when it comes to this stuff.

Squelchtone

What the inspector says, goes. Especially since those nightclub fires where people couldn't get out. I would ask a local inspector.

[dll932]

You mentioned using a Lori deadbolt. Someone mentioned that it would flop around too much - yes it would. But the flopping might be stopped.

Install the bolt and housing normally but without drilling completely through the outer skin of the door.
Get a piece of flat steel larger than the hole the Lori case was installed through.
Cut a hole just the exact diameter of the mortise cylinder.
Install the mortise cylinder through the hole in the flat plate and secure it with a screw on cylinder nut. Some inside/outside spacers will probably be required.
Screw the plate and cylinder into the Lori case.
Attach the plate to the door surface with screws. (one-ways or tamper resistant)
Tighten the set screw to prevent any cylinder turning.

The cylinder locked in place and screwed to the door will stabilize the Lori bolt and case.
Good luck.

That's a good plan, but it will not be as hidden as I would like. I'd like no sign of locks on the outside of the door =) keep em guessin!

I guess I COULD mortise in a lever set which uses case screws to keep the lock case in the door, and then just screw a cylinder into it from the inside and attach a lever/handle/knob.

Squelchtone

There are mortise locks with "egress function:" they have a latch and bolt, but pushing the lever retracts the latch AND bolt at the same time. Another possible idea might be an electromagnetic lock that's fail-safe (deenergizes if power goes down), with a surface bolt for overnight when the business is closed. It would be expensive, of course, but mortise locks aren't cheap either.

[dll932]

Hey gang,

A customer wants me to install a hidden deadbolt on a back door to his business. This door goes into the alley where the dumpster is. There are 2 doors to enter and exit the store already, so fire/life safety is not a huge concern. The door is not a real metal door, more like a wood core with metal cladding, and exposed wood on the edges, and I need to fit an USA style deadbolt but have no indicator outside the door that there is a deadbolt, so my question is how do I do this as most USA style deadbolts require 2 screws to sandwich the lock together from both sides.

Thank you,
Squelchtone

What type of lock is presently installed on the door in question...

Commercial premises will mean finding a rated lock for the door, even if it is an auxiliary, as you would need to be able to maintain the fire rating of the wall if the door is only closed by that additional lock for whatever reason...

I would go with one of these babies: http://www.securitech.com/trident-locks/

I have seen them installed and they do legitimately take like 2 hours to install...

You can order additional dead lugs for the hinge side of the door beyond the one that comes with the kit...

~~ Evan

Trident makes a lot of stuff worth considering. Thanks for the link!

[Raymond]

Does the inside have to be key locking? A panic bar with no exit trim will show nothing outside and lock securely. Employees can exit at any time in case of emergency.

Why does it have to be a mortised lock or deadbolt? There may be many surface mounted options.

Could you use a jimmy-proof lock with the key cylinder on the inside to lock and unlock it? Since it is surface mounted nothing will be outside.

Are you just teasing us with an impossible quest?

[zeke79]

Since it is only a metal CLAD wood door I didn't figure that would hold up without drilling through the door. If it was a good steel door that would work perfectly.

[cledry]

What kind of business is it? Why does the customer want a key on the inside? What is the square footage and occupancy? Is there an exit sign above the door?

If you explain the reasons for the lock rather than the type we might be able to offer a good solution, however for security the recommendation is to through bolt the lock especially if the door isn't solid. You can plate the inside to spread the load and surface mount something.

If the person is trying to deter employees from exiting the door I would mount a Detex EAX 500 on the inside.