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Quick way to determine A2, A3, or A4?

Information about locks themselves. Questions, tips and lock diagram information should be posted here.

Quick way to determine A2, A3, or A4?

Postby somenewguy » 9 Sep 2013 21:07

Is there a quick and simple way to know if you are looking at a key or lock from an A2, A3, or A4 SFIC system?

All I (think I) know about them (based on a couple of PDFs I found online) is:


Difference between pin lengths:
A2: 0.0125"
A3: 0.018"
A4: 0.021"

Number of possible key bitting depths (based on this key reader: http://www.lab-lockpins.com/images/lkgic.jpg)
A2: 9
A3: 6
A4: 5

Total pin stack height (though I have read that this is only a suggestion)
A2: 23
A3: 16
A4: 14

So the ways I see how to possibly figure out which system is in use are:

-Disassemble a core and measure pins, but this is no guarantee as you may not have every possible pin length. I guess you can look for multiples of the difference (since .0125, .018, and .021 don't have a common divisor) but I don't know how much mechanical wear would factor into this.
-Similarly, 'decode' a key (using a tool similar to the above, or by measuring the bitting cuts) but again you may not have every key depth present.
-Disassemble a core and measure overall pin stack and hope it equals 23, 16, or 14, but this is not guaranteed; the locks will work with different stack heights and whoever combinated them may ignore the guidance given by the manufacturer

All of these are more likely to help if you have access to more than one key and/or lock.

Is there any simple way to know (or get a good hint) as to which system is in use on any given lock?
somenewguy
 
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Re: Quick way to determine A2, A3, or A4?

Postby Evan » 10 Sep 2013 20:37

Use a key gauge...

Is there some reason why you would need to know which system is in use with cores you are not responsible for maintaining...

Most systems will be A2 with a few being A4...

~~ Evan
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Re: Quick way to determine A2, A3, or A4?

Postby cledry » 10 Sep 2013 21:03

What difference does it make if he is responsible for maintaining a system or not? Everyone isn't an institutional locksmith. Locksmiths in the field are often called to work on systems that they don't maintain. We repossess stores that have BEST systems on them on a regular basis and knowing which system would make determining the control key much easier for example. I just did a TJ Max that had 30 IC cores on it, so I picked one to the control shear line and made a control key. Knowing that it was A2 made the job quick and simple. We popped in new cores and were out of there in about an hour.
Jim
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Re: Quick way to determine A2, A3, or A4?

Postby somenewguy » 10 Sep 2013 22:15

I have worked on SFIC locks professionally (though tangentially; it's not something I do all day every day), but was also wondering about purchasing them in large lots on Ebay, if there was some quick and easy way to tell by looking at pictures, or maybe a measurement or something I could have the seller do to help me figure it out before bidding (something that was simple for someone not trained in lockworks to do correctly).

(Just to put everyone's mind at ease).
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Re: Quick way to determine A2, A3, or A4?

Postby somenewguy » 10 Sep 2013 22:24

Evan wrote:Use a key gauge...

Is there some reason why you would need to know which system is in use with cores you are not responsible for maintaining...

Most systems will be A2 with a few being A4...

~~ Evan


Would a key gauge be precise enough? Given the difference in pin depths is so small, is the key gauge designed to help differentiate between systems or just help you figure out the bitting within a system, assuming you know which system you're working with already?

Obviously if I am looking at a 7-cut key with 7 different cuts I know it must be A2, but aside from that rare situation I am not sure...
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Re: Quick way to determine A2, A3, or A4?

Postby cledry » 10 Sep 2013 23:14

somenewguy wrote:I have worked on SFIC locks professionally (though tangentially; it's not something I do all day every day), but was also wondering about purchasing them in large lots on Ebay, if there was some quick and easy way to tell by looking at pictures, or maybe a measurement or something I could have the seller do to help me figure it out before bidding (something that was simple for someone not trained in lockworks to do correctly).

(Just to put everyone's mind at ease).


Most suppliers sell the cores keyed up. A typical order might be 80 cores grouped in 4 with a common mk and control key, but you can order more or less or have different groupings. For quick repos we used kaa in 4 a lot.
Jim
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Re: Quick way to determine A2, A3, or A4?

Postby Evan » 12 Sep 2013 18:38

cledry wrote:What difference does it make if he is responsible for maintaining a system or not? Everyone isn't an institutional locksmith. Locksmiths in the field are often called to work on systems that they don't maintain. We repossess stores that have BEST systems on them on a regular basis and knowing which system would make determining the control key much easier for example. I just did a TJ Max that had 30 IC cores on it, so I picked one to the control shear line and made a control key. Knowing that it was A2 made the job quick and simple. We popped in new cores and were out of there in about an hour.


Yes, it does make a difference when a user with a single digit post count asks a specific question about a specific type of lock which has to do with decoding it...

I can understand your viewpoint but such situations fall under the same line of questioning as people asking about how to pick the lock on a laundry machine or how to open a master combination padlock without the combo since it has the little keyhole in the back...

~~ Evan
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Re: Quick way to determine A2, A3, or A4?

Postby cledry » 12 Sep 2013 23:00

Evan wrote:
cledry wrote:What difference does it make if he is responsible for maintaining a system or not? Everyone isn't an institutional locksmith. Locksmiths in the field are often called to work on systems that they don't maintain. We repossess stores that have BEST systems on them on a regular basis and knowing which system would make determining the control key much easier for example. I just did a TJ Max that had 30 IC cores on it, so I picked one to the control shear line and made a control key. Knowing that it was A2 made the job quick and simple. We popped in new cores and were out of there in about an hour.


Yes, it does make a difference when a user with a single digit post count asks a specific question about a specific type of lock which has to do with decoding it...

I can understand your viewpoint but such situations fall under the same line of questioning as people asking about how to pick the lock on a laundry machine or how to open a master combination padlock without the combo since it has the little keyhole in the back...

~~ Evan


Sorry, this time I cannot see your point. Knowing which system it is hardly makes it more vulnerable to opening. It is more a key and rekeying query rather than how to open X type of lock. At least that is the way I read it.

I suppose you are reasoning that this person must be up to no good, but these cores are easily come by and often traded in the forum. They aren't considered high security. I guess there could be some concern that they are trying to determine MK or control key of a system, say at a school, but really these locks pick so easily why even bother.
Jim
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Re: Quick way to determine A2, A3, or A4?

Postby somenewguy » 14 Sep 2013 16:55

I figured it was OK to ask because it's not something that 'gives up' the whole system just by knowing it. I suspect most people with criminal intent don't even understand the question to begin with.
Even if one is trying to determine MK/control bitting you need to know more than just the pinning system. Anyway, I'm just trying to buy parts online cheap from sellers who often don't know what they're selling. Just for messing around with, so if I don't have to repin &rekey, I save some money.
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