old mortise lock cyinder removal

[Truth_seeker]

Hi, im new to the forum, im a novice lock picker & was doing some amateur lock smithing for my parents. their house was built during the twenties & their front door is the original door that has an old mortise lock in which a key had been broken off inside the cylinder. i simply removed the back of the lock & was able to see the back of the key way was exposed & open so i was able it just drive the broken key bit out through the front of the lock from the back using a pick. however prior to this i was unable to see the back of the cylinder as i had hoped i'd b able to & temporarily moved on to plan B before eventually reverting to plan A which was eventually successful...heres the point: plan B was to remove the entire cylinder to try & get at it that way, but when i attempted to remove what i believe is called a "set screw" (the screw that is driven in through the side plate on the door just above the bolt that holds the cylinder in place) i was unable to do so..it turns freely for about 5-6 rotations then comes to a dead stop when turned counter clockwise as opposed to the gradual tightening that happens when turned the 5-6 rotations from the aforementioned stopped position in the opposite direction as would be expected when tightening a screw...i had the idea that perhaps this was not a screw but a partially threaded notched pin with a screw head on it & that if i turned it to the correct position the cylinder might just slide out, but after trying every possible position while trying to pull the cylinder out i scrapped that idea...the cylinder is not like the ones in the pictures & videos ive seen, i was able to pry the face plate around it away from the door enough to see that it was not threaded & most likely does not screw into the lock body as modern day cylinders do, though i could b wrong about that (like i said b4 "novice") but i didnt see any threads & the cylinder itself is not a cylinder per say its the style of lock cylinder that has a visible pin housing or "Bible" as ive heard it called protruding from the rest of the cylinder which leads me to believe that it couldnt possibly screw into the lock body... i am super confused & its bothering me that i cant figure it out, plus id kind of like to sort of refurbish their 100 yr old locking mechanism for them as its probably NEVER been done lol...any help would b much appreciated... is the screw just binding up on me?? or is there some trick with these old things i dont know? when it comes to that dead stop when trying to remove it its like i hit a wall.. im pretty handy & know how various screws act but i turned so hard the flat head notch in the screw began to strip i tried repeatedly jreking slightly counter clockwise, i tried lube, i tried it all...is the screw just "screwed'' or am i missing something here? please help...thanx in advance...

ps. i dont know the names of allot of these lock components & fixtures, any corrections or suggestions in regards to that would also b very much appreciated as well as it will help me get my point across more clearly & effectively in the future...

[keysman]

Photos would be helpful . Other information such as make, model , what country you are in will make it easier for someone to assist you.
viewtopic.php?t=6558 or Upload photos here and paste the link http://tinypic.com/

[Truth_seeker]

i am from the U.S. i dont know the make or model i will try & find out, i have pictures, ill upload them as soon as i can. thank you

[MrWizard]

Just because you don't see threads from the edge angle you are viewing the cylinder doesn't mean it isn't threaded. On many old mortise cylinders they were not solid all the way to the front and you will see the bible. I have a few examples in this picture below. One is a cylinder and the other is a t-turn with the same style housing. I have seen some that have way less threads than these examples like 1/3rd of the cylinder only.



As for the set screw you are talking about, turning it counter clockwise and it finally comes to a dead stop that is what it is designed to do they don't come all the way out of the lock it is moving a threaded piece inside the lock housing away from the cylinder and will hit the case if you keep unscrewing it to a dead stop. Just back the set screw out some or until it does stop and then unscrew the cylinder counter clockwise. It may be tightened very tight to make it fit flush with the door and will be hard at first unscrewing it. Russwin and Corbin was a common mortise lock I have seen this type cylinders used on.

I would say being you are not familiar with these old mortise locks even if you do get the cylinders out and take the lock case out I would highly suggest you do not take the lock case apart as many have strong springs and could have some parts pop out of place and you might not know how they go back. Just graphite it with the case together shake it around a bit. Oil might make it worse if it has old oil and dirt and old grease in it.

If the lock is working ok there is no real reason to remove the lock at all. Just get some black graphite and shoot some onto the and holes in the edge of the case that looks like they go all the way through and also shoot some through the keyways front and back. Or if you get the cylinder out you have a big opening you can shoot some in and work the lock see if it doesn't feel better to you.

Richard

[Truth_seeker]

Extremely helpful thank u..I have a small amount of experience messing with mortise locks but they were all junk & missing some pieces & none of which were actually installed in a door at the time, I am vaguely familiar with the inner workings, the only reason I want to take it apart is because the bolt is no longer functional & the buttons on the side panel that lock/unlock the outside latch tend to get pushed too far in & won't line up right with the holes in the side panel, I will take what you said About not taking it apart into consideration though, because it still seems like it may b more work than it's worth since the latch lock is working & the door has a seperate deadbolt...thank you very much for your response I'm really just glad I understand that set screw issue, are all mortise culinders threaded like that? Wut could I use to remove the cylinder that won't tare it up or damage the door? Any suggestions? Or should just grab some basic chanelocks & be careful?

[MrWizard]

No most mortise cylinders are solid round and threaded most of the way.

Just a small standard slot screw driver in the keyway usually will be enough to unscrew the cylinder. If you have a key blank or key that don't work the lock you can try using one of those instead of screw driver. Once it starts to turn it will come right out easy in most cases.

[cledry]

One other trick is to loosen the big screws that hold the lock in the door. Occasionally the hole for the cylinder in the door will be off and by loosening the case screws you can often get it loose. I also occasionally rap on the cylinder with a rubber mallet to break any crud on the threads loose.

[Truth_seeker]

Thank you all I will let you know how it turns out...mr wizard thank you I understood that you meant different cylinders can be threaded differently but wut I meant was: are all mortise cylinders threaded? Do they all twist into the lock body? Basically my question was: is there a chance it's not threaded or should I just be confident that it is?

[GWiens2001]

They say a picture is worth a thousand words. Are there mortise locks that do not use that kind of cylinder? There are numerous locks around the world. If you want a good answer, a good picture will help us help you. Otherwise we are just shooting in the dark. That said, MrWizard is quite an experienced locksmith.

Gordon

[Truth_seeker]

Great! I truly appreciate his input as well as yours... I'm posting all my replies from an old iphone & have limited access to computers, not to mention I'm not the most "computer savvy" but as soon as I get a chance to upload the images & figure out exactly how to do so I will post them, i have the pictures ready to go, imm hoping I will be able to do so tomorrow in fact... Thank you

[cledry]

If you are in the US it will thread in. There was a storefront mortise cylinder that was held in with a wire clip but it isn't very common these days.