Forensic question.

[Squelchtone]

In that case, like I already replied, it is a trivial act to get a copy of a key made, and return the original keys, while still having a copy of the keys. did the boat really sink? did a friend of his just take it it off shore and paint a new name on it? who knows.

If the keys were something high end like BiLock, Abloy, or Medeco, I would then have doubts as to the owner getting copies of the key made at a local locksmith or hardware shop, but wafer locks.. heck, sometimes you can stick a similar key in from your lawn mower and it may turn and start the boat engine.

hope that helps,
Squelchtone

Yes, indeed - this is what the insurance assessor would have thought. But there was still the problem that the fraudster could put on a sob story and persuade the judge that the boat was indeed lost. Now if the insurance assessor could find evidence that another set of keys was made, that would make his day.

So let me ask you, are you involved in this situation first hand and trying to help them in real life to find proof or is this just a mind experiment? I honestly don't enjoy those as there is already not enough time in the day to get other stuff done.

If your insurance assessor is any good at his job he would have already gone to all the local locksmiths with a photo of the guy making the claim and asked if they made any keys for him. Likewise, if the court decides on it, they may have the power to check this shady guys phone records and credit card purchases and see if he called a locksmith in the weeks leading up to this or if he charged the copying of keys. Then again, he could have had spare keys since he got the boat, so there's no way to prove he got them copied recently. You could hire a PI to walk around and ask the people at the marina if they had recently seen the owner at his boat, maybe bringing tools on board or doing anything unusual like removing electronics from the boat, or furniture, equipment, etc, while he got ready to scuttle it.

on the next episode of Law & Order...
Squelchtone

[ckc123]

There is also the standard operating practice for situation like this..

when there is any doubt deny the claim outright.. if the person is truly in the right then they will fight it, and put in a lot of effort to get the claim through, and then they will settle just before the court date..

most fraudsters will not put in the full effort to fight it, and will disappear before the court date.. they don't like the public light of court (as now they are known and future attempts will be harder)

On the downside, the "Good guys" tend to get screwed on this type of things (as some insurance claims are not simple).

[DennisK]

There is also the standard operating practice for situation like this..

when there is any doubt deny the claim outright.. if the person is truly in the right then they will fight it, and put in a lot of effort to get the claim through, and then they will settle just before the court date..

most fraudsters will not put in the full effort to fight it, and will disappear before the court date.. they don't like the public light of court (as now they are known and future attempts will be harder)

On the downside, the "Good guys" tend to get screwed on this type of things (as some insurance claims are not simple ).

And this part is the "unfair practice" that seems so prevalent in business today. Say you had insurance on your car for years always paying your premiums on time.Through no fault of your own,you're involved in an accident.Would it be fair of the ins. company to deny you? I mean,they always expected you to pay monthly,but now they are balking? Bull feathers!

edit: Sorry for hijacking the thread.....I'm done now!

[zeke79]

If the key was duplicated then it is possible that there will be evidence on the originals from dragging across the duplicator stylus.

[peterwn]

So let's assume that you own a boat, and that a nutjob actually steals it and sinks it (and himself along with it); does this mean you won't get paid up? Thanks for the laugh btw, cledry, I needed that at work today

I want the boat sunk to claim the insurance. So I get an extra set of keys made, and hand the keys and a $100 bill to a nutter to take and sink the boat.

I am well covered as I have both sets of original keys to produce to the insurance assessor - that should impress him - just tell him there was no other sets. How was I to know the b*****d would go rushing off to a forensic expert who found marks and scratches on the keys indicating they had been used as a pattern key in a key duplicating machine. Duh!

Perhaps I would have been better off taking the boat to another seaside city and selling it in a pub. But I still needed a set of keys for the new owner. Duh!

[zeke79]

Actually i think the moral of the story is..........

Code cut keys are always best.

[Squelchtone]

I'm on a boat...

[ckc123]

But you don't got no keys!!!!!


lol

[peterwn]

If the key was duplicated then it is possible that there will be evidence on the originals from dragging across the duplicator stylus.

Congratulations! I wondered too if the vice could have left a mark. One aspect not noted in the newspaper report is whether the expert gave any indication as to how long ago the extra keys were made, eg whether the marks were 'raw' and the surface not fully oxidised.

In response to various other comments, the insurance would probably have swallowed the rat and paid out but for this piece of forensic evidence. Also the insurance company would have had a budget in mind for the assessor, so it would not be worthwhile for him to gumshoe round all the locksmiths, hardware stores and mall kiosks in a city of 1.4 million people.