Difficulty in picking extreme bittings.

[Drifty Flintlock]

Well... extreme is probably a very relative term in my case. I'm still pretty new and I imagine what I consider extreme is pretty boring in the grand scheme. But work with me here.

My main practice lock is a simple Kwikset that I've scavenged some pins from out of other Kwikset locks. I've been doing a progressive pinning type of thing and I'm getting fairly consistent single pin picking results with random 5 pins combinations. However, I'm having terrible trouble with the bitting the lock actually came with, which is 15251. The problem, I think, is the last pin. If I replace the 1s with 2s, I can pick it without any major problems.

I'm at the point where I can generally tell if I'm on the pin that needs to be picked next, but not at the point where I can tell exactly which pin I'm on and which pins are already done. I'm mainly using a Southord short hook with the thick metal handle, and for the most part I think I'm doing pretty well with it.. I also have the small and large diamond, and a long hook that I shortened and rounded into a Gonzo as suggested in Practical Lock Picking. That one isn't perfect but I've never done much machining.

Like I said, I believe I'm getting hung up at the last pin, though I'm not absolutely certain about that. From what I can tell, I just can't quite reach the short hook around the last 5 to get to the 1 without screwing things up. With the Gonzo... something rather strange is happening. When I move the Gonzo to the back, I think I feel something happening, but when I move it out of the lock the pins just feel... wrong. Like maybe trying to move it to the back is oversetting the other pins on the way? The diamonds, based on my semi-educatedguess, don't seem to be tall enough to get the job done.

I'm honestly not sure whether to blame my tools or my technique. This is probably a dumb question, but I've spent a good couple hours on it and it's not just that I can't open it, it's that I don't think I'm getting any closer. Is this something I should be able to accomplish with the tools I have, or do I need something else?

[KPick]

A long hook should take care of that.

I really don't understand why it shouldn't reach.

When I had trouble like in your situation, I would always use this one
I placed heavy moderate tension on the wrench to hold things together and I tried sort of maneuvering trough the keyway to get to the back pin.

[fgarci03]

A long hook should take care of that.

I really don't understand why it shouldn't reach.

When I had trouble like in your situation, I would always use this one
I placed heavy moderate tension on the wrench to hold things together and I tried sort of maneuvering trough the keyway to get to the back pin.

Good advice!

A long hook, or a DeForest.. Something that is "tall enough" to reach the last pin without disturbing the others.
I particularly agree with the harder tension part. Use hard tension while placing your pick in position but NOT while lifting the pin. Hard tension in this case is just so you can manouver the pick in the keyway without risking displacing any pin, because longer tools tens to be more difficult to move inside the keyway!

KPick said it all, let us know how it goes


P.S. - So that you know, that is a really hard bitting. Congratulations on achieving it!

[Drifty Flintlock]

Sorry, let me be more specific regarding the long hook. I don't think the problem is that it won't reach, rather, I think it may be disrupting the other pins as I move it through the lock. I'll try it again with a heavier tension and see how it goes. If I can't get it, I'll look into getting that pick.

[fgarci03]

Ah I see, then harden the tension a bit so you can go through the pins without disturbing them.

If everything else fails, try picking it the other way around. Some locks are just plain impossible to one side

[commadore]

The cheaper southord picks that are basically just sheet metal, not the one posted above have a taller shaft which does seem to bother pins. For this reason I chose sparrows wizwazzle set because of the thinner shaft and variety of hooks and spp tools.

They are stronger though.

[Starlight691]

On the technique end... With locks that are typically bitted with highs and lows (schlage, sargent), when I'm not getting results from the typical method, I sometimes start with my hook at the back of the lock and work forwards. In otherwords, insert the hook all the way in before inserting the tension wrench and applying any tension. Sometimes you can set the rearmost pin first.

Happy picking.

[mechanical_nightmare]

If all else fails, you can reduce the number of pin stacks or you can also try alternating the bitting, by re-pinning the cylinder so that the high-low combination is less drastic, or located such that it is easier to pick. Then you can try working your way up. Be careful not to end up with a re-pinned cylinder that you can't pick and for which the key won't work...

I am having the same problem with locks such as Vachette, ABUS and Kale. Those manufacturers love high-low bitting, spools and narrow snaky keyways.

[YouLuckyFox]

+1 on Abus having High-Low nightmares

I'm honestly not sure whether to blame my tools or my technique. This is probably a dumb question, but I've spent a good couple hours on it and it's not just that I can't open it, it's that I don't think I'm getting any closer. Is this something I should be able to accomplish with the tools I have, or do I need something else?

I encounter some very extreme bitting with a Segal deadbolt. I was having great trouble picking this lock, even though it had pretty sloppy tolerances and was an easy KW1 keyway. I took the plug out and left the key pins in. I maneuvered my pick to ensure that my Peterson Reach was only lifting one pin (as close to one pin) as possible, I was surprised to find that it wasn't even close. I had a second Peterson Reach so I made adjustments to the pick until it came as close as possible to lifting only one pin at a time; from there I was able to pick the lock in any pin configuration. Try taking the plug out and trying the above mentioned exercise to find out if you are able to pick close to just one pin at a time, it will help you identify if the problem is technique or if a different pick needs to be used. Also, altering the way I hold the pick--holding my thumb under the pick and pushing up rather than leveraging the pick on the bottom of the keyway--seems to help isolate each pin because the pick is being lifted straight up rather than being angled so that the shaft touches a preceding pin. If anyone has had a similar experience with pushing up rather than prying, please let me know.

Another note, don't worry about ridiculous High-Low bittings, as they would not be practical. A lock that has a 9 next to a 1 could trap the key in the lock, so generally you won't find a lock that has that extreme of bitting and won't need to stay up at night worrying about not being able to pick a 9-1-9-1-9 bitting. 5-1 is pretty nasty bitting though, Drifty; my apartment lock has 4 depths between two of the adjacent cuts and the key has to be jostled to go all the way in. It also makes a stress point in the key and can cause it to break off more easily inside the lock. That is why there is a MACS setting on master keying software (Manufacture Adjacent Cut Specification--this video explains it pretty well: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LH7pWymjcCM.)

[Drifty Flintlock]

I stepped away from a while and worked on other things and decided to come back to it, but unfortunately it didn't help. I appreciate the ideas, but I'm still stuck. I have learned a few things though.

I decided to work my way up with the Gonzo just like I had with the short hook and diamond. Well, it turns out that didn't go so well either. Even on fairly tame bitting with only 4 pins that I can open easily with a short hook or diamond, I can't get anything done with the Gonzo. Again, I THINK I'm disturbing pins as I move it through the lock. I definitely feel it getting hung up in a way that none of my other picks do.

So it's a combination of things. The tools I know how to use can't reach the extreme bittings, and the one tool I have that can theoretically do the job, I can't actually do ANYTHING with. For the time being, I think I'm going to shorten the Gonzo further. It can't possibly make it LESS effective, since right now I can't open basically anything at all with it as is. I'll give that a shot, and it all else fails I'll get the offset diamond.

[phrygianradar]

I think I read all the posts here and was wondering if anyone asked what type of tension wrench you are using? I have found that by switching to a top of the keyway tension wrench, like the Peterson Prybar, can make a whole huge difference. Just throwing that out there, and curious because I didn't see anyone bring it up. If somebody did, I apologize for beating what may be a dead horse. But if you are using a bottom of the keyway wrench, that is going to limit your maneuverability quite a lot.

[Drifty Flintlock]

I'm using a regular L bend type tension wrench. I don't think that's the problem, the pick is hitting the warding on the lock before I hit the wrench, at least I think so.

I haven't really figured out top tension wrenches yet. I have a Peterson prybar and I just don't really get what it's for. It seems to slip out of the lock way too easy, and on top of that I find it interferes with trying to work with the pins a lot more than bottom wrenches do with movement. Everyone tells me they're amazing, but I just don't get it.

[GWiens2001]

It takes practice getting TOK tension wrenches to stay in place. If they are the right thickness, it is easier, but still tougher than the longer wrenches that fit on the outside edge of the keyway.

Gordon

[HerrMannelig]

I haven't really figured out top tension wrenches yet. I have a Peterson prybar and I just don't really get what it's for. It seems to slip out of the lock way too easy, and on top of that I find it interferes with trying to work with the pins a lot more than bottom wrenches do with movement. Everyone tells me they're amazing, but I just don't get it.

I do not like Peterson prybars as much as others, but when it comes to picking, there are a lot of options and techniques.

However, if you want a good top tension tool, try the ALS tools. I prefer the mini version which is only sold as part of a set: http://www.survivalcorner.com/als-mini-flats/

And here is the full sized version: http://www.survivalcorner.com/als-lock- ... nsion-bar/

When it comes to picking, sometimes finding the right tension tool is more important than finding the right pick.

[KPick]

Top of the key way works in many ways.

For example: Lets say your stuck on an American lock, and you can't pick it in the clockwise direction, like it is meant to be picked. How about you try the opposite direction? but WAIT you can't use a normal tension wrench for that purpose because the plug guard wont allow you to do that! If we try to put a top of the key way wrench in the top, then we can turn it in the opposite way and now we have a "possible" easier way to pick it.

Another example scenario would come up when you have a high and low key pins, like the problem described in this thread, so you want more room so its easier with a deforest pick, or a deep hook. Okay, there we go now we use a serrated top of the key way tension wrench for more grip and space.