combination safe lock manipulation (old locked safe)

[LockDocWa]

Yale safe locks with gears are my Kryptonite.
I have opened easily over 100 safes.
I have manipulated many of those.
I have never manipulated open a Yale geared safe lock.

Good Luck with that and be sure to let us know the outcome.

[zandan]

Do you hear or feel gears when you spin the dial?

Yales' with gears always give me a hard time.

What I tend to hear is something like a tic, tic, tic, tic. This occurs
usually around the numbers that I believe to be the combination which
are 10 20 30. Also I get this same thing to happen quite frequently
around 60. I don't know if the tics are something with the functioning
of the dial or if I'm feeling/hearing gear movements. When the ticking
takes place I also sometimes get a scraping sound with squeaks.

[GWiens2001]

Scraping sound with squeaks? Take off the back cover and check for mice.

Still waiting for my first Yale gear lock to arrive in the mail.

You might try getting a copy of the National Locksmith Guide to Manipulation. If memory serves me right (which it does less and less as I get older), there is a chapter on manipulating Yale gear locks.

Gordon

[torontosafecracker]

When dialing your 10 20 30, return to the contact region.... keep the dial in the contact region and hit the safe with a non marking mallet around the dial ring (without hitting it)

the lever may fall in place, keep the dial in place and check your cp's as you bang around, they will either get better, or worse...


Try a combination, 25-98-45 , check cp's, then try your 10 , 20 , 30. If it is indeed the combo you will notice a big difference...


Josh

Gordon: I think the lock you are thinking of in that book is a MOSLER 302, I could be wrong, but that's the only brand of lock I remember from that book that had it's own chapter.

[GWiens2001]

Thanks, Josh.

Gordon

[Squelchtone]

Gordon: I think the lock you are thinking of in that book is a MOSLER 302, I could be wrong, but that's the only brand of lock I remember from that book that had it's own chapter.

It's a Yale 4 wheel friction fence lock as an example, pretty much what OP has. (Chapter 5, Page 65) (The Mosler 302 is in Chapter 9, Page 105.)

Thanks for the good tip on hitting door with deadbolt hammer, I have a feeling the Mosler I've been working on has a stuck/gummed up lever that will not drop, and it is mounted VU so my drop in is around 5.

Thanks,
Squelchtone

[zandan]

To torontosafecracker from zandan

You are saying to return to the contact points and go from there.
However, I mentioned that the contact points are hard to read although
I get a lot of feeling/hearing tic, tic, tics around my supposed combo
numbers of 10 20 30 and other numbers like 60 quite a bit of the time
and now occasionally around 90 and 0.

Just exactly what contact points do I work with or what is the best way
to set up the contact points with all of the tics that I have either
moving right or left around the numbers above. I tend to use what
I believe to be the '90 degree method' wherein I will move either
90 degrees away from a supposed contact area either moving right
or left and then back again to the supposed contact area.

After several tries at doing this, I will rotate the dial completely around to
the supposed contact area, moving completely around either going right
or left. When coming back into the supposed contact area around the
numbers above I start all over again and I still get the tics with occasional
squeaking or rasping like something is rubbing metal to metal. I don't
know if I'm doing this correctly or not.

Could you give me any pointers on doing this? I would guess, as you
and others have pointed out that my Yale lock is a gear driven
lock with either 2 or 3 wheels and a driver (I don't know if I got that
right or not), but would you please explain the wheel/driver
configuration again if you would please, plus anything you could direct
me on with working from the CORRECT contact points. I don't really know
if I have the right CPS. Thanks for you help on this. I'm trying to work on
this as much as I can and have to take breaks because it's very exasperating.

I've pretty much given up on graphing the contact points at this point
in time. Any info on doing this would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks again for your input, zandan
zandan@netzero.net

[Squelchtone]

Give up on this 90 degree thing, it is not a direct correlation of contact point to combination number. if that lock is mounted RH in that safe, it will only have one Contact Point at one place on the dial. and in only one direction, per the safe manual Gordon mentioned it should be felt/heard when dialing to the Left ONLY.

edit: I'm not sure why I mentioned being mounted RH, I was going somewhere with that... either way, the model of lock will only have one CP, the Right Hand mounting doesnt have anything to do with that.

[torontosafecracker]

Gordon, My apologies, looked it up again (with Squelch's help) and it's right there under my nose, So good call, both of you.

Let me be honest and say I've never had the chance to manipulate an OC or OB, I hope to buy one or two to practice on.

What I'm seeing here is somebody starting off learning manipulation and they are doing it on one hell of a lock, Sticky dials, one contact point, etc, not saying it's impossible but learning the basics of a lock is crucial to understanding to what is going on.

I suggest getting a cut away lock of any sort (Safe lock) and trying that out first.Understanding what exactly is happening when the lock is working will help you open it.

Contact Point/s , Region or area should be well known before even attempting a manipulation.
Once you have determined exactly where you CP is, then you can start mapping the wheels. You are building a map of the wheels when you take readings, so stick to your graph and don't give up. Just make sure you know exactly what is happening inside the lock before you try and grasp the indications of bumps clicks humming and whirlings of the lock

[torontosafecracker]

Gordon: I think the lock you are thinking of in that book is a MOSLER 302, I could be wrong, but that's the only brand of lock I remember from that book that had it's own chapter.

It's a Yale 4 wheel friction fence lock as an example, pretty much what OP has. (Chapter 5, Page 65) (The Mosler 302 is in Chapter 9, Page 105.)

Thanks for the good tip on hitting door with deadbolt hammer, I have a feeling the Mosler I've been working on has a stuck/gummed up lever that will not drop, and it is mounted VU so my drop in is around 5.

Thanks,
Squelchtone

No problem, I have a buddy who is also a safe tech, he diagnosed a vault door , found out a wheel was unlocked. Se he decided to drill, what he did though (the genius he is) is that he taped the dial in the Contact Region and when he got 3 inches into the vault, the vibration from the drill was enough to spin the wheel under the fence, it fell and they just had to repair the half-hole....

Edit: I understand that a OCB won't have a problem like this because it's hand change,but if a lever doesn't fall, then sometimes you gotta make it.

[zandan]

Hey all of you out there,
I just got the National Locksmith Guide
to Manipulation. There is nothing in the
155 pages that references a gear lock or
a Yale gear combination lock.

The type of configurations for safe
combination lock are:

Chapter 3 Spring Fence Lock

Chapter 4 Fixed Drive Pin Locks

Chapter 5 Friction Fence Lock

Chapter 6 The Sentry Floor Safe

Chapter 7 The Straight In or
Direct Entry Fence

Chapter 8 The Star Push Down
Manipulation Resistant Safe

Chapter 9 Parking,(Manipulation of a
Mosler 302)

From Fri. Jan 24, 2014 4:42am
Torontosafecracker had one reply which
had a reference to “Josh-Gordon: I think the
lock you are thinking of in that book is a
MOSLER 302, I could be wrong but that’s
the only brand of lock I remember from that
book that had it’s own chapter.(zandan, which
is true under Chapter 9 but is this a safe gear lock?)
And again at 12:35 pm, Squelchtone stated: Gordon,
…it’s a Yale 4 wheel friction fence lock as an
example, pretty much what OP has Chapter 5,Page 65)
(zandan-nothing on this on Page 5, but Chapter 5
begins on Page 78 and is the Friction Fence Lock)
Do I have the right manual or is it just a typo
on Chapter 5 Page 65?
(The Mosler 302 is in Chapter 9, Page 105)

I would guess that from the above comments
that the Yale lock I’m trying to crack is a
friction fence lock? But I find no reference
to Yale gear lock.
And….5:02pm…if that lock is mounted RH
in that safe, it will only have one Contact Point
at one place on the dial, and in only in one
direction, per the safe manual Gordon
mentioned….(from this again I would have
a Yale Gear Lock?)

Again there is no reference I can find that
has the word ‘gear’ in it and I would suppose
that these other terms are what you’re
referring to when talking about a gear lock
unless there is another version of this manual.

Please advise if my assumptions are true.
As a side note, this manual is extensive and
it does answer most, if not all, of the questions
I’ve been asking about parking the wheels,
contact points, etc. I’ve got a lot to learn,
especially with this Yale combo safe lock.
Any discrepancies above wherein I’ve
misunderstood anything, anyone of you
please advise.

Thanks, zandan

[GWiens2001]

That Yale lock is a friction fence lock.

Gordon

[Squelchtone]

Zandan...

Dont look at your PDF viewers page count, look at the printed books page number, you will surely find it is page 65.

By the way, this is starting to skirt Advanced topics, as we currently can help with dialing diagnostics in this sub forum but not full blown manipulation instructions. I am working on making some changes to the forum rules, but change doesn't come overnight.

There will not be much more we can tell you in regards to getting into that safe, read that friction fence chapter, go get a yale friction fence lock on ebay so you can take it apart and see what all those noises and feels are while you are dialing, and then after a year of practice you may just open it. Google images search for yale safe lock, yale friction fence, yale OC5 and you will see some internal gut shots that show you how locks from that time period used a gear behind the driver, to transfer motion to a gear behind the fence in order to work the fence and retract or extend the bolt.

If we go any deeper, I'll have to move the thread to Advanced, so please proceed accordingly.

Thanks and good luck,
Squelchtone

[zandan]

Squelchtone,
Yeah you were correct I was looking at the PDF page
numbers and not the catalog page numbers. This Yale
gear(friction) lock is on page 65 of the catalog and
as you advised me to measure the distance from the
handle center to the center of the dial; it is a distance
of 4 1/2 inches. So this must be a OC5 Yale lock with a front
wheel driver.

There are two handles to open this safe and I measured
the distance from the handle closest to the dial to
get the 4 1/2 inch measurement. I am trying the combos
you mentioned as possible choices for the combination
with the combination perhaps having moved over time.

I would hope they work because opening this safe with
graphing, etc. is indeed a long haul. Additionally I also
took the advise of the torontosafecracker and used
a soft rubber mallet to hit around the door of the dial,keeping
the tapping/hitting of the safe door away from the
ring of the dial and not on the dial itself as the dial
was moved back and forth into the contact area. The
smoothness of the dialing did improve with less noise
but as you already know, hearing/feeling the contact
points is a real tough for this lock. I also tried the advise
of using a combo of 25 98 45, which I would believe is
the reverse of the supposed combo of 10 20 30. I used
this 25 98 45 combo with the tapping of the safe with
the rubber mallet and then would go back to the
various permutations of the 10 20 30 numbers. So
far no luck but I'll keep trying.

Thanks again for all of the advise because the
National Locksmith catalog/book is extensive. I wish
I could access the advanced/safe section of the website
because you guys must have a lot of tips and tricks
to work on this lock. Of course with the Locksmith
manual there are no tricks or shortcuts, it's continual
hard grueling work.

That's all for now, thanks again, I'll keep working at it
and hopefully something good will happen

zandan

[Bluevan]

I have been following this thread with great interest and wanted to mention an experience I had with an old safe. I have the combo for this one, but I use it for a toolbox so it rarely gets locked. Well, one day it was closed and locked and would not open. I banged my head against it for six months. I tried the combo countless times and beat on it with everything I had. One day while rearranging the basement I used a floor jack to lift it and move it into the new spot (since it only rolls one direction). I probably lifted each side 1/4 inch twice and dropped it back down during the move. To my amazement the lever moved when I bumped it with my knee. It was unlocked. The last time I was attempting to open it, I left the combo done and it must have popped with all the jarring around.

Later on took it apart the lock and found that the fence was sticking due to lack of lubrication mixed with crud. I guess "lube safe" did not make it on anyone's to-do list over the years. Anyhow, my suggestion is to take the combination(s) that you think are most promising and try each one using a floor jack each time to give it a jolt.

The safe is a 54w x 42h HHM made on Hamilton, OH. The lock is a Yale. The fence goes up into gates so it doesn't really "drop" on this lock. I can take some pictures if it would be at all helpful.

Oh and if you move this thread, I might shove a fork in my eye.

Bluevan