Last Pin Will Not Set

[Squelchtone]

Greetings,
I am relatively new to lockpicking (2 months). I have recently purchased a rake pick and a tension wrench (I was just using makeshift ones that didn't really work). It took me a while (about 5-6 min) to unlock my first lock. I started practicing on that one, and got the hang of it. My methods are mainly raking and pushing the pins up. When i moved to this different lock however, i raked until i got all the pins up, except one. This one pin moves up, but it does not click into place. I read somewhere about overset pins. Does this have to do with the problem? Any reply would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance

[GWiens2001]

It does sound like overset pins. What kind of lock?

Gordon

[jak4949]

It does sound like overset pins. What kind of lock?

Gordon

Its a Pin and Tumbler lock. The manufacturer is Schlage, but it is really old, not one of the new ones.

[GWiens2001]

Our definitions of really old may be slightly different.

That said, you might be dealing with spool pins, as well. It is easier to test this with a hook pick or a diamond rake. While keeping light tension on the plug, with the four pins 'set', try lifting the already set pins one at a time. If the plug starts to turn backwards, you are probably dealing with spool pins.

Gordon

[jak4949]

Our definitions of really old may be slightly different.

That said, you might be dealing with spool pins, as well. It is easier to test this with a hook pick or a diamond rake. While keeping light tension on the plug, with the four pins 'set', try lifting the already set pins one at a time. If the plug starts to turn backwards, you are probably dealing with spool pins.

Gordon

I forgot to mention another detail: the lock that i'm dealing with is a indoor room lock, not an outdoor lock. With that being said, do you think that they are spool pins? I will research more on spool pins later, but do you think that an indoor, room lock would have spool pins?

[easy-e]

I forgot to mention another detail: the lock that i'm dealing with is a indoor room lock, not an outdoor lock. With that being said, do you think that they are spool pins? I will research more on spool pins later, but do you think that an indoor, room lock would have spool pins?

It sounds like this lock is in use? If so you really shouldn't be practicing on it. I haven't seen Schlage "indoor locks". Everything I've seen is pretty universal and some of the Schlages I have do have spool pins.

My thought would be that you aren't able to lift that pin high enough with your rake. You will probably need a hook to reach it.

[jak4949]

It sounds like this lock is in use? If so you really shouldn't be practicing on it. I haven't seen Schlage "indoor locks". Everything I've seen is pretty universal and some of the Schlages I have do have spool pins.

My thought would be that you aren't able to lift that pin high enough with your rake. You will probably need a hook to reach it.

Yeah i really should get a practice lock, but they cost too much, and i am on a 15 dollar budget :p . I have no problem buying the hook (other than the fact that I have to wait), as it is really cheap, but i have three questions. Why can't i rake the last pin down? and If its a spool pin, why is there only one of them in the lock? (I raked all the others down) and lastly Do spool pins require the hook?
Thanks

[Divinorum]

Greetings,
My methods are mainly raking and pushing the pins up. When i moved to this different lock however, i raked until i got all the pins up, except one.

Rakes are great tools that do come in handy however, they cant always single handedly open a lock. While some locks can be raked open, others are much more difficult due to their tolerances and complexities. Some pins need to be lifted less and some more. If a pin is below set it will prevent the lock from opening. Likewise, If you lift the pins beyond the set point they will become over set and also prevent the lock from opening. This is one of the reasons why raking doesn't always work. With your rake you are likely pushing on multiple pins at the same time and those pins need to be set at different heights.

This one pin moves up, but it does not click into place. I read somewhere about overset pins. Does this have to do with the problem?

Understanding the different pin states helps determine what the problem is. Bosnian Bill did a great video in which he spoke about a great piece called "Lockpicking: Detail Overkill" written by Mike Solomon . All credit for this is given to him (I will post the link below). In this document he describes these states as.....

At rest - the normal position before any picking takes place. When a pin is at rest it will feel springy when pressed on.

Set - Top pin resting above the plug, key pin resting inside the plug. Sheer line is clear. Because the top pin is set, when you press on the corresponding key pin it will feel loose with no spring.

Over set -Key pin is lifted to high and blocking plug rotation. The keypin may feel stiff or stuck.

Under set - Top pin is still blocking plug rotation. Not lifted high enough. Pin may also feel springy.

False set - an under set pin which gives the impression of being set, or has trapped the plug in an exaggerated rotation.

Bosnian Bills - Improve Your Lock Picking Skills (for Beginners) - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fI7Lx-73lU0
Under the video click "Show More" and there is a link to Detail Overkill.

That should help you figure out what pin is causing a problem. In your case a few things are possible. If all of the pins are indeed set except the last pin you describe I would say that the last pin wont set because your rake can't push the pin to sherline (without disturbing the other pins). It's also possible that one of the other pins seems set but it's really not. In that case the "last" pin is going to fail to set until the other pins are corrected. This is due to the binding order. Over setting is common with raking and can also cause problems.

fgarci03's guide to Oversetting Pins - How NOT to DO IT! - viewtopic.php?f=3&t=58200

I highly recommend acquiring a couple hooks and diamonds and learning to SPP (Single Pin Pick). Hooks and diamonds will allow you to target one pin at a time rather than hitting multiple pins at once like a rake. With this method you tackle each pin one by one until all the pins set and the lock opens. If raking doesn't open the lock, SPP would be the next step. After you learn to SPP you will also become better at raking because you will have a better understanding of the pin states.

Last but not least, what kind of lock is it? Try and post a picture of it.

[GWiens2001]

$15 budget. If you have a Home Depot or Lowes in your area, get a standard Kwikset deadbolt. (Not SmartKey). $14.95

Gordon

[easy-e]

Yeah i really should get a practice lock, but they cost too much, and i am on a 15 dollar budget :p . I have no problem buying the hook (other than the fact that I have to wait), as it is really cheap, but i have three questions.

You should fill in your location in your profile. It would help us give you suggestions. There are lots of cheap padlocks that can be found at $1 stores and cheap tool stores like Harbor Freight. Some of these are better than they look, some even have security pins. The other option is stores that sell second use building materials or thrift stores. Many times locks without keys are a dollar or two. If you get some keys cut at the local locksmith and start talking to them about stuff they may give you some locks to take apart. Mentioning lockpicking doesn't usually go very far but spending money and asking questions (when they are slow) does work.

Why can't i rake the last pin down?

You usually can, but if you have severe bitting, the high point on your rake might not be high enough to get between the longer pins on both sides of the shorter pin.

If its a spool pin, why is there only one of them in the lock? (I raked all the others down)

You can rake them, but it requires using light tension and practice/luck. I'm not a big fan of raking, but I've used them to pick locks with security pins in the past. Of my rakes I like the bogotas.

Do spool pins require the hook?

Not necessarily, but many people who pick for a hobby or professionally like to SPP because it works for a much larger variety of locks. There are situations where it's just really difficult to reach a certain pin and you need a special kind of hook.

[jak4949]

Thank You so much for that detailed post! That is exactly what i needed! I'm sure this solved my problem! To answer your question: I cannot post a picture, but i have a Schlage pin and tumbler gold indoor lock. Thanks again, i am extremely grateful!!

[Divinorum]

Thank You so much for that detailed post! That is exactly what i needed! I'm sure this solved my problem! To answer your question: I cannot post a picture, but i have a Schlage pin and tumbler gold indoor lock. Thanks again, i am extremely grateful!!

No problem. Schlage locks could be tuff if your just starting out. I just purchase a gold schlage doorknob lock for a bedroom; sound similar to your lock. Before I installed it I tried picking it. It was challenging for me to pick. Afterwards I took it apart because i wanted to see why. Ends up it has T pins that sit in the springs. It also has a floating bible cap.

This thread talks more about what I'm describing
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=40101&view=next

I should also mention, just in case you missed it, there are two rules to pick by.
#1 NEVER pick a lock that does not belong to you.
#2 NEVER pick a lock that is in use.

Be careful because these Schlage locks with the floating bible caps can break VERY easily. Put to much upward force on a pin and you can break off the bible cap and all the guts will fall out.

For learning to SPP I'd recommend a master lock No 3 (No 1,2,3,4,5 all have the same internal core. Only difference is the outer size). They have four standard pins, a maneuverable keyway, and can take a good beating. Good luck.

[jak4949]

$15 budget. If you have a Home Depot or Lowes in your area, get a standard Kwikset deadbolt. (Not SmartKey). $14.95

Thanks for the advice, but i was looking for like a cheap cutaway, not a deadbolt. BTW do you have a link for a $14.95 deadbolt?

No problem. Schlage locks could be tuff if your just starting out. I just purchase a gold schlage doorknob lock for a bedroom; sound similar to your lock. Before I installed it I tried picking it. It was challenging for me to pick. Afterwards I took it apart because i wanted to see why. Ends up it has T pins that sit in the springs. It also has a floating bible cap.

Well i have had this lock for 6 years. Do you have a link, name or picture of the exact model of the lock? Thanks for all the advice! Just one more question: if i am a starter, and only have a rake and a tension wrench, do you recommend me to get another pick like a hook or a half diamond?

[KPick]

$15 budget. If you have a Home Depot or Lowes in your area, get a standard Kwikset deadbolt. (Not SmartKey). $14.95

Thanks for the advice, but i was looking for like a cheap cutaway, not a deadbolt. BTW do you have a link for a $14.95 deadbolt?

No problem. Schlage locks could be tuff if your just starting out. I just purchase a gold schlage doorknob lock for a bedroom; sound similar to your lock. Before I installed it I tried picking it. It was challenging for me to pick. Afterwards I took it apart because i wanted to see why. Ends up it has T pins that sit in the springs. It also has a floating bible cap.

Well i have had this lock for 6 years. Do you have a link, name or picture of the exact model of the lock? Thanks for all the advice! Just one more question: if i am a starter, and only have a rake and a tension wrench, do you recommend me to get another pick like a hook or a half diamond?

http://www.amazon.com/CONSTRUCTOR-DEADB ... dbolt+lock

The one above looks like a great lock to start with.

[Squelchtone]

jak4949 has been banned for questioning and being rude to a mod or admin via PM. just letting everyone know.

have a good weekend,
Squelchtone