Impressioning ignorance

[keithwins]

I'm curious about impressioning, and have just wasted a fair bit of time watching videos and reading posts. The reason I say wasted is because I'm missing some central concept... I get that you jiggle the key and look for the marks from the pins (and that it's more complicated than that!). I get that it's subtle. But what is telling you when you're "done": is it the sound/feel of a pin setting? How do you know which one, or would you always do one at a time (it doesn't seem like it)?

For example, one approach is to use markers or foil to emphasize the pin marks. But I don't understand why they are going to mark at the right depth, unless perhaps you are properly noticing which ones set, and once they set they mark more firmly until/unless you cut too far...??? Or maybe the marks change noticeably as you approach the right depth? It seems like there should be a fairly simple basic overview description, but all the vids & posts I've seen seem to sort of assume that part. Or I'm just really dense today. Seriously, I think I'm totally clueless about something here, but I can't even tell what!

Thanks for any help in understanding it!

K

[GWiens2001]

Just the opposite. When the key is cut to the correct depth, the pins stop marking the key blank. How do you know when you are done? The key opens the lock!

Gordon

[keithwins]

Just the opposite. When the key is cut to the correct depth, the pins stop marking the key blank. How do you know when you are done? The key opens the lock!
Gordon

Duh. Okay, I think that makes sense... I guess as each pin sets, it stops marking, even if it isn't "the next in line" in terms of what would set if one were picking it (sorry, I don't really have the lingo down). So the marks start getting lighter and lighter... Well, anyway, that's probably enough that I can go back to the vids & posts... Thanks!

Seems like if one were merely needing to produce a key for a cylinder one already had out of the lock, this would be a silly way to do it? That is, just get a blank, pull out the cylinder, and file each spot until the pins are flush... yes? I need to do this soon, seems obvious enough, unless I'm missing something.

K

[GWiens2001]

Yes and no.

Yes, if you already have the plug out of the lock, yes it is easier to file the key until the pins sit flush.

And the no part... most commonly, the impressioning marks get deeper and clearer just before the pins reach the shear line.

Good questions! Keep 'em coming.

Gordon

[keithwins]

Yes and no.

Yes, if you already have the plug out of the lock, yes it is easier to file the key until the pins sit flush.

And the no part... most commonly, the impressioning marks get deeper and clearer just before the pins reach the shear line.

Good questions! Keep 'em coming.

Gordon

Okay, I'll bite: are they getting deeper and clearer because the slight bevel on the tops of pins forces them into the blank as they set, or am I completely off?

[GWiens2001]

as the pins near the shear line, they wiggle more under tension, and are forced into the key blank.

Gordon

[keithwins]

You know, right after I posted that I thought the "wiggle more" issue was more likely to be it... or more precisely, as you approach the shear line, the pin will _ sideways and the corner will cut into the key more. I guess that's pretty much what you said. Thanks, I think I get it now. In theory... which is as good a place to start as any!

[GWiens2001]

Keep us posted!

Gordon

[keithwins]

Okay, thanks for all the info. I'm not quite sure when I'll play with it, but it's all cool to know.

I just finished the little project I had to do, picking a double-cylinder deadbolt (3 times, as it turns out!), cutting a new key for it, and reinstalling, and it went pretty smoothly. I had this idea, might be old hat in the trade, of inserting the blank in the removed cylinder, holding a piece of paper up behind the pins and drawing the relative pin heights and pin locations on the piece of paper. Then I filed one pin location down on the key carefully, and then quickly did the other 4 from the piece of paper. Worked the first time! Anyway, thanks for people's thoughts on all this, it's fun feeling like I understand it a little more.

[cledry]

Okay, thanks for all the info. I'm not quite sure when I'll play with it, but it's all cool to know.

I just finished the little project I had to do, picking a double-cylinder deadbolt (3 times, as it turns out!), cutting a new key for it, and reinstalling, and it went pretty smoothly. I had this idea, might be old hat in the trade, of inserting the blank in the removed cylinder, holding a piece of paper up behind the pins and drawing the relative pin heights and pin locations on the piece of paper. Then I filed one pin location down on the key carefully, and then quickly did the other 4 from the piece of paper. Worked the first time! Anyway, thanks for people's thoughts on all this, it's fun feeling like I understand it a little more.

In the trade you develop an eye for it and we use a code machine generally. One of our newer employees had 6 mortise cylinders to rekey with no available key. He couldn't shim the lock so I shimmed it for him and then as he was about to dump the pins I mentioned to make a key on the chance it worked the other cylinders. I stuck a blank in and read the cuts quickly and cut a key and it worked the other cylinders, thus saving time.

[keithwins]

I have a followup question, I may have to start a new post...

I noticed someone talk about using a blue marker to improve the readability of pin impressions. I have the sense, when people talk about carefully filing in a specific direction to prepare the blank for impressioning, that they are trying to create a surface that does that same thing...

So... I also realize that one could buy or prepare a set of depth keys for a given cylinder. Could one not then coat the top of these with blue marker, liquid white-out, or whatever maximizes impression readability, and then insert the entire set one by one, and basically "read off" what the key should be? Or am I missing something? Does anyone do this/have they tried it?

[GWiens2001]

Do NOT use white-out! It leaves a lot of crud that can jam up the pins.

Don't think the color of the marker matters. I use a black sharpie marker, but have used red and brown ones, too. The you can also get ultraviolet markers and use a UV light.

You are correct in thinking the reason for preparing the key blank by filing in a direction is to make it easier to see the impressioning marks. It cleans off the inconsistencies off the top of the key blade, making the entire surface uniform, and changes in that uniform surface can be spotted more easily.

There is a lot of talk about using special files, and I do. However, have also used cheap Harbor Freight needle files. Sandpaper works, too. But it is only with greater experience that I have been able to consistently make a key with the poorer surface.

Gordon

[keithwins]

Yes, I thought the white-out might be too much of a mess.

But what about the idea of creating a set of keys, either proper depth keys or perhaps a set that's just shy of proper depth keys. Seems like you could impression a lock in seconds, in principle... it would even sort of control for mushroom pins or whatever, sort of? Or would it not work...

[GWiens2001]

The problem is only the binding pin(s) will mark. No matter what depth the others are at.

Gordon

[easy-e]

The problem is only the binding pin(s) will mark. No matter what depth the others are at.

Gordon

And you can only use them once. Marking them with a marker may cover up the old marks but it would be like spraying a shooting target with paint, eventually you will have so many marks it will be hard to figure out which one is the new one.