combination safe lock manipulation (old locked safe)

[zandan]

Bluevan's advise of jacking up the safe and setting
it down was good to do and I'm doing it before the combination
sets, 6 total with each set starting right and left, both starting
with 4 3 2 1 and also with 3 2 1 for the 3 combo numbers in each
set of 6 three number sets.

The jacking up and sitting the safe down seems to make the
dial run smoother. Also from the torontosafecracker; to hit
or tap/bang the safe around the door of the dial without
hitting the dial or the dial ring also improves the smoothness
of the dial turning.

Wow, the Locksmith manual really has me confused at this point
in time with finding the contact point which should only be
one moving left? I was thinking that a contact point was to be
found when moving the dial in the opposite direction--if the
contact point is 7 then I move right to find it or left to find
it? And I have to return to the contact point after picking
up the wheels approximately around 50 and then back to
the contact point again and again to pick up all wheels whether
3 wheels or 4 wheels. Not too sure I've got this right but
need to go over Chapter 2 I believe in the manual and then
again in Chapter 5 for a friction fence lock. My lock is
apparently an OC5 Yale gear lock.

I have to see what happens as I work through different combos
with variations of 10 20 30, either up or down on some of
the numbers with various permutations of the numbers

That's about it for now, any suggestions or advice out there?

[GWiens2001]

Just got my Yale OC5 gear drive friction fence lock yesterday.

Keep in mind (as I had to learn), this lock dials in the opposite direction of most safe locks.

R-L-R, then left to open.

It definitely has a different feel from any other safe lock I have had my grubby paws on. Mine is rather old and even has (well, had) cobwebs inside. It is rather persnickety (picky) about the numbers being entered.

Also had to add/subtract a number on each part of the combination. Not sure if it just needs a good cleaning or what. Quite sure this lock can use some TLC. If you have some advice for proper maintenance of this lock, please either post it here or PM me.

Gordon

[zandan]

To GWiens2001:

Yeah, I hear yah,
RLR then Left to open is probably correct but I seem to
get more tics, sounds, feels when I start the manipulation
by going left. It is indeed a confusing lock.

As you are doing, I am doing also with add and subtract
off the supposed combo of 10 20 30 in various permutations
thereof. When I was operating/opening this safe decades
ago it seems like I was moving left on a 3 number combination
to open with the opening somewhere between 5 and 90.

When opening it my memory seems to see the last number before
turning left to the drop open as being 10. However, even with
a lot of tics, whirling, sounds and feels I haven't been able
to get it to open yet. Although I seem to remember it was a
quick back off of the ten to open. I'm pretty sure this is
a 3 wheel combo, however when I start movement to the left
with the various combos, my recollection is that at right to
open would bring in a 4th wheel which would be hit and
then moving to the right on the opening of the safe. Can't
be too sure of this; I'm only working from memory. If it is
a 4 wheel lock to hit 4 combo numbers the second to last
number would be in the 60 to 90 area to make it a short trip
to the 10 which I remember the way the lock opened when
moving back to the left from a short trip from somewhere
between 60 and 90. Any suggestions?

[GWiens2001]

If you had a short turn from 10 to retract the bolt, it was turning the wrong way. 10-to-retract should take you from 10 all the way around the dial. My drop-in point is at about 3.25, with the bolt fully retracted at 9. (This is not manipulation information, just dialing information.)

Dialing right will have the numbers going down (starting at 0, will take you through 99,98,97, etcetera), turning the dial clockwise. Dialing left makes the numbers go up (starting at 0, will take you through 1,2,3...) turning the dial counter-clockwise.

So turning the dial left to retract the bolt will have the numbers going upwards. This is the opposite of most combination safe locks. You mention turning right to open. That will not open this lock.

As an added bit of info when dialing this lock... once the lever drops into the gates, the lock turns very very easily, as there is no longer any friction (worth mentioning). Don't think I can post any pictures of the lock with the back cover off to show what I mean, but a Google search should get you the pictures you need.

Good luck!

Gordon

[Squelchtone]

To GWiens2001:

Yeah, I hear yah,
RLR then Left to open is probably correct but I seem to
get more tics, sounds, feels when I start the manipulation
by going left. It is indeed a confusing lock.

That's because the friction fence only touches the whee pack when dialing Left, it rotates up and out of the way a little bit, just enough not to ride the wheelpack when dialing Right.

This is all in Chapter 5 Same goes with Dialing right to count the wheels because you wont get any noise or interference from the fence which may make a novice count the fence hitting the wheelpack as an additional wheel.

Squelchtone

[zandan]

OK guys,
Here's something else I've noticed:
More often than not, if I don't keep my hand on the dial,
then the dial will move itself in the opposite
direction from which I was turning. It's like
the dial has tension on it from the end of whatever
rotation (4 3 2 1) that I'm performing.

The movement isn't much just one increment on
the dial and it's doing this in the next direction
that I'm going to be turning the dial anyway.

Is there a problem here? Or is this just the
way this Yale OC5 gear lock behaves? The
movement/tension will also take place off
and on if I stop the dial in midstream from whatever
rotation I'm turning and it doesn't make
any difference if I'm making 4 3 2 1 rotations.

Hope there's not a problem here as solving
the problem would probably require drilling the lock.

Any suggestions? information on this?

[GWiens2001]

Normal from what I see, but a whole number? Mine moves maybe .2 -Your lock could probably do with a bit of maintenance as well, once you get it open.

Gordon

[Squelchtone]

OK guys,
Here's something else I've noticed:
More often than not, if I don't keep my hand on the dial,
then the dial will move itself in the opposite
direction from which I was turning. It's like
the dial has tension on it from the end of whatever
rotation (4 3 2 1) that I'm performing.

The movement isn't much just one increment on
the dial and it's doing this in the next direction
that I'm going to be turning the dial anyway.

I wonder if this might be because when you stop on a number on the outside dial, the gears inside are in mid-mesh and need to come to rest so the dial ends up moving a little.

I wouldn't read too much into this though, I don't think it means the lock is broken, and I don't think it will affect your ability to manipulate. I will say, and you probably figured this out already, but when you turn the wheel several times in one direction you move the cam, then the first wheel, second wheel, and third wheel. You should feel the dial get heavier to turn and you should feel more drag with each revolution. BUT, if you suddenly decide to turn the opposite way, there is no drag or pressure because you are just turning the dial, and nothing is moving other than the cam. You will start to feel drag again after 1 full revolution from where you changed direction, this is the combination wheel being picked up by means of a pin and fly.

don't drill yet, don't give up! and if you actually decide to, please PM me so you don't go drilling random holes into the front of the safe. Also.. asbestos.

Squelchtone

[zandan]

To: GWiens2001

Yeah, I overstated this tension/automatic dial movement
a bit. Since I'm more aware of this action now, I started
to pay more attention to it and you're right it does move
only about point 2 whichever way and not a whole
number increment.
I'll keep working at it
Thanks, zandan

[zandan]

I found these two images on google internet for
a yale OC 5 gear friction fence lock

One is a diagram and the other is an actual
picture of this lock in its case

I'm not too sure if these images are correct
for this lock. If these are correct let me know
Also point me to any part of these two images
that are the most important

Thanks, zandan

[Squelchtone]

The photo is a Yale, but the patent drawing is a Mosler CD-302, which is not what you have inside your safe because it uses the more modern lever arm versus a friction fence..

Here's a photo of a Mosler 302



Check out all the photos from this Yale safe lock auction on ebay, I think this is the one Gordon won:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/111256812849

sample image from that auction:


Squelchtone

[zandan]

The photo is a Yale, but the patent drawing is a Mosler CD-302, which is not what you have inside your safe because it uses the more modern lever arm versus a friction fence..

Here's a photo of a Mosler 302



Check out all the photos from this Yale safe lock auction on ebay, I think this is the one Gordon won:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/111256812849

sample image from that auction:


Squelchtone

It looks simple compared to what I expected.
just what part (parts) are the most relevant
to my problem of finding the correct dialing
sequence or finding the correct contact point
which the Locksmith Manual states is 7 or
thereabouts. Would my contact point be
substantially different from what the manual
states because there is a very faint to no
feeling/hearing or otherwise detecting the
contact point at around the number 7?

[GWiens2001]

Check out all the photos from this Yale safe lock auction on ebay, I think this is the one Gordon won:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/111256812849

sample image from that auction:


Squelchtone

That's the one!

Technically, I did not win it. Lost the auction, and figured it was gone, until a local guy showed me the lock he won on eBay (and even showed me the listing), and asked if I wanted to buy it. Of course I did.

Gordon

[zandan]

Check out all the photos from this Yale safe lock auction on ebay, I think this is the one Gordon won:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/111256812849

sample image from that auction:


Squelchtone

That's the one!

Technically, I did not win it. Lost the auction, and figured it was gone, until a local guy showed me the lock he won on eBay (and even showed me the listing), and asked if I wanted to buy it. Of course I did.

Gordon

Do you have this lock yet or are you in the
process of purchasing it from the person
who won the auction?
zandan

[GWiens2001]

I have it. That is how I knew about the .2 increment of 'backdial' (for want of a better word).

Gordon