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combination safe lock manipulation (old locked safe)

Forgot how to dial the combination on that old safe? Think you got the right numbers but the handle is stuck? What safe should you buy? Ask your safe questions here!
Forum rules
You are posting this in This Old Safe, a public area of the forum.

Safe manipulation discussion is allowed, but safe drilling or other destructive entry is only allowed in the Advanced - Safes and Safe Locks area.

If you are a guest of the forum and have a safe you need to open, but you do not have the combination, we cannot tell you how or where to drill it.

Re: combination safe lock manipulation (old locked safe)

Postby zandan » 29 Jan 2014 22:43

GWiens2001 wrote:I have it. That is how I knew about the .2 increment of 'backdial' (for want of a better word). :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

Gordon

Well then, the cutaway looks simple compared to what
I expected. Just what part (parts) are the
most relevant to my problem of finding
the correct dialing sequence or more
importantly finding the correct contact point
which the Locksmith Manual states is 7 or
thereabouts. Would my contact point be
substantially different from what the manual
states because there is a very faint to no
feeling/hearing or otherwise detecting the
contact point at around the number 7 when
moving the dial either right or left in the
beginning of the manipulation?

zandan

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zandan
 
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Re: combination safe lock manipulation (old locked safe)

Postby GWiens2001 » 29 Jan 2014 23:04

It does seem simple, doesn't it? It brings to mind a few quotes...

***Looks can be deceiving.

***The hard things are always simple.

***The simple things are always hard.

And the most important, by our illustrious Squelchtone...

Squelchtone wrote:By the way, this is starting to skirt Advanced topics, as we currently can help with dialing diagnostics in this sub forum but not full blown manipulation instructions. I am working on making some changes to the forum rules, but change doesn't come overnight.


Unfortunately, can not get into any further detail without getting this thread kicked into Advanced Forums, where you can not see what is written.

Gordon
Just when you finally think you have learned it all, that is when you learn that you don't know anything yet.
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Re: combination safe lock manipulation (old locked safe)

Postby zandan » 29 Jan 2014 23:38

GWiens2001 wrote:It does seem simple, doesn't it? It brings to mind a few quotes...

***Looks can be deceiving.

***The hard things are always simple.

***The simple things are always hard.

And the most important, by our illustrious Squelchtone...

Squelchtone wrote:By the way, this is starting to skirt Advanced topics, as we currently can help with dialing diagnostics in this sub forum but not full blown manipulation instructions. I am working on making some changes to the forum rules, but change doesn't come overnight.


Unfortunately, can not get into any further detail without getting this thread kicked into Advanced Forums, where you can not see what is written.

Gordon

Ok, but is the advanced section only for professional locksmiths
and professionals of other types. I originally thought there was
a concern about someone doing criminal acts with the info
from the advanced section topics and I would think that by
now anyone could tell that the safe I'm trying to crack is
my own and not someone else who I'm committing a criminal
act on by cracking their safe. I'm sure my I.P. address is recorded
along with everything else that comes through with my email
location but who knows? You mean to tell me that talking about
or discussing how, what and where a contact point is on
this lock is only advance topic information?
zandan
 
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Re: combination safe lock manipulation (old locked safe)

Postby Squelchtone » 30 Jan 2014 0:52

zandan wrote:
GWiens2001 wrote:It does seem simple, doesn't it? It brings to mind a few quotes...

***Looks can be deceiving.

***The hard things are always simple.

***The simple things are always hard.

And the most important, by our illustrious Squelchtone...

Squelchtone wrote:By the way, this is starting to skirt Advanced topics, as we currently can help with dialing diagnostics in this sub forum but not full blown manipulation instructions. I am working on making some changes to the forum rules, but change doesn't come overnight.


Unfortunately, can not get into any further detail without getting this thread kicked into Advanced Forums, where you can not see what is written.

Gordon

Ok, but is the advanced section only for professional locksmiths
and professionals of other types. I originally thought there was
a concern about someone doing criminal acts with the info
from the advanced section topics and I would think that by
now anyone could tell that the safe I'm trying to crack is
my own and not someone else who I'm committing a criminal
act on by cracking their safe. I'm sure my I.P. address is recorded
along with everything else that comes through with my email
location but who knows? You mean to tell me that talking about
or discussing how, what and where a contact point is on
this lock is only advance topic information?


If we help you by giving you the exact play by play how to instructions here, someone with bad intentions may come along tomorrow or in a year and read this public area post and use those instructions to something bad. that's why the exact 'safe cracking/manipulation' instructions (at least for the current near future) will be something we can only discuss in the Advanced areas of the forum where vetted and trusted members can read them, it has nothing to do with being a professional locksmith, most folks who have Advanced access here are not trade professionals, but yes, there are a few locksmiths in there.

I feel we're going a little bit in circles here, you mentioned:

zandan wrote:Just what part (parts) are the
most relevant to my problem of finding
the correct dialing sequence or more
importantly finding the correct contact point
which the Locksmith Manual states is 7 or
thereabouts.


I feel like we have already posted the dialing sequence several times in this thread, so please take note of it. I believe you have tried 10-20-30-10 and it had not opened the lock, and you will not really need the dialing sequence for the manipulation part of it, that has it's own dialing sequence when it comes to picking up and parking wheels.

I enjoy these locks a lot so I don't mind adding to this thread, but there are some concepts that you will just have to grasp on your own, or get a lock in your hands so you can practice and see what's going on inside, only then will you have that 'aha!' moment that no amount of forum reading can equate to.
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Re: combination safe lock manipulation (old locked safe)

Postby zandan » 30 Jan 2014 14:25

Ok Squelchtone, and GWiens2001
So I'm pretty much at my limits with everyone on what
information can be discussed further on this open
forum in regards to the manipulation of my Yale OC 5 lock.

First of all this is an OC 5 and not an OC4 or whatever
other designation there might be for this lock?
I wouldn't think there would be much of a change in how
I would manipulate it if it's not an OC5 because if its
a friction fence lock the same things would apply to
it as to other styles of a friction fence lock.(I hope that's not a
question for the advanced forum only)

Second and lastly, from all that I've related to everyone
about my experiences with this lock are all of you
relatively sure that this Yale OC5 is not broken
in some way wherein I would just be wasting my time
to try to manipulate it?

A brief recap the lock's operation: the lock tends to stick or hang up
and not run smoothly at times. This has been helped
with the tapping/banging around the door of the lock
when I've tried to keep the lock in what I believe to
be its contact point at around 7. Also jacking the safe
up and down has helped to make the dialing
run more smoothly. The dial does have a slight tilt
to it relative to the ring; that is, it's not exactly
flush with the dial ring or door of the safe
And as I've previously stated there are various sounds
of tic, tic,tics,and the scraping and squeaking of metal.

That's about it for its dialing operation.

I just want to be fairly sure that I'm not working with a
lock with broken parts. I realize no one can be 100%
sure of this but just let me know what you think
and if I've reasonably told you enough that would
point to a lock that just needs maintenance and is
probably not broken in some way. Of course this
cannot be completely ascertained until the safe is
opened. Just, if you would please, give me your best
guess on this.

And thanks again for what's told me to date.

Looking forward to hearing from you Squelchtone
and GWiens2001 on this and anyone else
who might see this particular post of mine and
would comment on it.

And again, thanks for the help given me
zandan
 
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Re: combination safe lock manipulation (old locked safe)

Postby Squelchtone » 30 Jan 2014 14:44

I don't think your lock is as much broken, as probably has old grease inside which is stopping the fence from rotating into position and trying the wheelpack. I have an old Mosler in this same predicament and some days I can feel a contact point at around 7, and some days I spin and spin and feel nothing. Only thing that seems to help is when you dont feel anything at around 7, wiggle the dial back and fourth quickly from 0-15 and that should loosen up any old grease or worn parts and while rotating Left around 7 you may feel something. There are some areas on a wheel pack where there will be high spots and low spots so you may not feel the contact point because the wheels are parked on an especially high spot, graphing the wheels from 0 to 99 and trying the contact area is probably the only way to get this done, and then do that wiggle from 0-15 thing in case your fence is sticking and doesn't want to rotate down into the drop in area.

Your only enemy is time. I say that because it sounds like the safe was not maintained for a long time and like someone greased it up thinking this was a good idea, when a lot of old timer 'smiths have told me that you do not lubricate brass safe lock parts, one guy actually said "they're self lubricating" I put my money on old vitrified grease inside your safe lock. The other reason you are having a hard time is because this is an older lock, made from 1930-1950, and the people who serviced them back then are starting to not be around any more so that's why a google search isnt coming up with a user manual or a service manual, or factory parts lists or diagrams. A lot of this information was passed from locksmith to apprentice over the years, it exists in limited doses in a few books that are most of the time not easy to get unless you are a locksmith or safeman. You could get the Yale safe lock on ebay now for $125, and learn on that, but it all depends how much time and money you want to dedicate to this project.

Squelchtone
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Re: combination safe lock manipulation (old locked safe)

Postby zandan » 30 Jan 2014 17:11

Squelchtone wrote:I don't think your lock is as much broken, as probably has old grease inside which is stopping the fence from rotating into position and trying the wheelpack. I have an old Mosler in this same predicament and some days I can feel a contact point at around 7, and some days I spin and spin and feel nothing. Only thing that seems to help is when you dont feel anything at around 7, wiggle the dial back and fourth quickly from 0-15 and that should loosen up any old grease or worn parts and while rotating Left around 7 you may feel something. There are some areas on a wheel pack where there will be high spots and low spots so you may not feel the contact point because the wheels are parked on an especially high spot, graphing the wheels from 0 to 99 and trying the contact area is probably the only way to get this done, and then do that wiggle from 0-15 thing in case your fence is sticking and doesn't want to rotate down into the drop in area.

Your only enemy is time. I say that because it sounds like the safe was not maintained for a long time and like someone greased it up thinking this was a good idea, when a lot of old timer 'smiths have told me that you do not lubricate brass safe lock parts, one guy actually said "they're self lubricating" I put my money on old vitrified grease inside your safe lock. The other reason you are having a hard time is because this is an older lock, made from 1930-1950, and the people who serviced them back then are starting to not be around any more so that's why a google search isnt coming up with a user manual or a service manual, or factory parts lists or diagrams. A lot of this information was passed from locksmith to apprentice over the years, it exists in limited doses in a few books that are most of the time not easy to get unless you are a locksmith or safeman. You could get the Yale safe lock on ebay now for $125, and learn on that, but it all depends how much time and money you want to dedicate to this project.

Squelchtone

Thanks again, I'll keep working at it and if it comes to drilling
then I'll get back to you because in a previous post you mentioned
you'd have some advise on drilling

As a side note, I've already contacted a locksmith to discuss drilling
and I've had 3 conversations on this with him. He's fairly close by
and works in my area (Northeast LA, El Sereno) from time to time.
So far his comments have been that he's pretty familiar with an OC5
and he'd probably try to manipulate it first before trying to drill.

He even gave me some pointers on manipulating it myself with changing
the numbers slightly from 1st number up one, second number
down one and third number up one. Then various ups an downs
on the various numbers from there with different numbers
beginning and ending the combination.

The more I think about when I use to open this safe with the
10 20 30 numbers, the more I remember that the last number
was a 10 and it was only on short trip (I've said this before) back
from the number before going to the 10 which would put the
second number somewhere between 20 and 0. At the 10 I
would have turned the dial left when it would open somewhere
between 90 and 0. The sequence may not have been turns of
4 3 2 1 but 3 2 1 turns to the 10.

The one thing the locksmith focused on was that on going to
the 10 for the last turn, the number used before it sometimes
wouldn't work unless I offset it one point on the dial less than
the second number was. This is why he gave me the up downs
to try on the various sequences of 10 20 30. I don't believe this
lock has a 4 wheel mark to hit but I'll try some of those too.

His further comments were that it would depend on just what he
felt in the manipulation and usually it takes about a half hour to
determine if further manipulation will make it possible to open it.
If it doesn't feel right to him then he would drill. This would take
about one half hour to manipulate and if it doesn't look promising
to continue manipulation beyond the half hour then he would drill.

The comments about drilling I liked because he stated that he'd only
make a hole (a small one, just enough to put a scope in to read the
combos on the wheels) and this (the hole) he currently ascertained
would be at the somewhere above the dial ring. Of course if this
is a bottom, a right or left configuration, I believe the position
of the hole would change. We didn't talk about this but he
stated that after drilling I'd still be able to use the same lock as
he would be able to get the combination from the hole without
damaging the lock in any way whatsoever--that's the part I really liked.
The hole he would reseal to practically where it would be fairly unnoticeable.

All of this is fine when talking about it but I do believe the drilling
could be quite different. I would have to firm this up before
bringing him in.

However, I'm not quite there yet and will continue to manipulate the
lock until I decide to give up on manipulation. I don't really want to
drill it but sometimes it can get to be too much and again I'm not
at that point yet. So I'll keep trying to manipulate it and will see
how far I'll be able to take it before quitting.

And again, thanks for all you have done to get me to this point.
This also applies to all who have replied to my posts.
It's been quite an odyssey. I'll probably continue after completing
the task on this lock to be a hobbyist in working/opening safe locks
and who knows maybe I'll get into all of the other types of locks too.
It is an interesting avocation.

Thanks again, all of you, zandan
zandan
 
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Re: combination safe lock manipulation (old locked safe)

Postby torontosafecracker » 1 Feb 2014 16:17

Good job doing your research. Sounds like a good locksmith too, very fair.



I've had people tell me the combo is 30-40-50 just to find out it's 50 40 30


just and Idea..lol

If the locksmith is good, the hole will be in the same spot, he'll just know how to transfer.
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Re: combination safe lock manipulation (old locked safe)

Postby zandan » 1 Feb 2014 18:03

[quote="torontosafecracker"]Good job doing your research. Sounds like a good locksmith too, very fair.



I've had people tell me the combo is 30-40-50 just to find out it's 50 40 30


just and Idea..lol

If the locksmith is good, the hole will be in the same spot, he'll just know how to transfer.

Yes torontosafecracker, I didn't get into the price here online
but he's not way out there. When he also tried to help me
with the 2 up, 2 down, etc. wherein I'd be manipulating the
lock myself. I told him I'll call you if all else fails.

In regards to my working the lock, I've been going over
and over the National Locksmith Manuel, mainly Chapter 2
-The principles of manipulation and of course Chapter 5-The
friction fence lock(gear lock). I've seen discussions on the
"Forbidden Zone" and with my using a 10 as the last number
on a 3 wheel combo or using a 90 as the second to last number on
a 4 wheel combo with a short trip to the 10 as the final 4th wheel;
am I risking the pitfalls of being in the forbidden zone with
either of these two numbers and of course anything
in between them?

Let me know, I'm not too sure if these two brackets of
numbers are always the forbidden zone for all locks.
From what I've been reading this what I've
construed from the National Locksmith manual.(Woops,
hope I'm not getting into the advance lock stuff)


Oh and Mr.Squelch...I imagine you'll see this post
and I wanted to thank you for sending me the info
on drilling if I get to that point. And will do exactly as you
wanted me to with the info. (I couldn't tell if my
reply to you went through so I'm doing so here)
zandan
 
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Re: combination safe lock manipulation (old locked safe)

Postby GWiens2001 » 2 Feb 2014 22:27

For those who followed this thread, have disassembled and cleaned my Yale OC5 lock. It now dials much easier, and the numbers dial exactly where they are set on the dial. Also, unlike prior to cleaning, can dial the combo in either direction, without any compensation, and the lock opens (except have to dial to 99, then reverse direction, to retract the bolt).

Gordon
Just when you finally think you have learned it all, that is when you learn that you don't know anything yet.
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Re: combination safe lock manipulation (old locked safe)

Postby zandan » 3 Feb 2014 10:32

Yes GWiens2001
But doesn't this get into or
get close to the forbidden zone which
can bring on problems with the
drop? I'm not too sure about exactly
what the forbidden zone is for
my lock when I have the numbers
in some permutation of 10 20 30.
zandan
 
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Re: combination safe lock manipulation (old locked safe)

Postby GWiens2001 » 3 Feb 2014 13:41

The forbidden zone on most safe locks is from about 90-10, and only applies to the final number of the combination.

The reason for the direction change if dialing the combination backwards is to get past the drop in zone, then reverse so the lever can drop into the gate. Unlike many safe locks, this lock does not allow the fence to touch the wheels when turning in the wrong direction. That is why you can only feel one contact point.

Better stop with the info at this time.

Gordon
Just when you finally think you have learned it all, that is when you learn that you don't know anything yet.
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Re: combination safe lock manipulation (old locked safe)

Postby zandan » 3 Feb 2014 15:07

GWiens2001
I'm beginning to wonder how much the
tilt on the dial is affecting my ability to
manipulate this lock.

The tilt is only about 1/8 of an inch or
thereabouts and it sticks out only when
making a complete turn of the dial.

The tilt is always at the top where the
dial meets the dial ring and nowhere else.
The tilt only lasts between the 50 and
zero (0) mark on the dial and it occurs
when dialing either right or left turns.

I just don't have the dial entirely flush with the
dial ring/safe door between these two points.

The safe hasn't been damaged from any
abuse and it has always had this tilt even
when I was able to open the safe years ago.
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Re: combination safe lock manipulation (old locked safe)

Postby GWiens2001 » 3 Feb 2014 15:32

And that high spot does not move around as the dial is turned?

Gordon
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Re: combination safe lock manipulation (old locked safe)

Postby zandan » 3 Feb 2014 15:51

GWiens2001
I'm kind of unclear about your saying
'...the high spot moving around.' I take
it to mean you're saying the high spot
is the tilt or do I feel a high spot with
the tilt?

Not too sure if I'm reading you right
on this.
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