combination safe lock manipulation (old locked safe)

[zandan]

Hey everyone,
The indications took another dump
to no indications at all. Used the heat gun
again but this time still no indications.
Last time this happened, I gave the
manipulation a rest and did the heat
gun after a longer wait to manipulate
and the indications came back.

Just thought I say that the parking instructions that
Squelchtone gave me started to work
with the different parking of the wheels
but as I got things going the indications
dropped off.

A lot of dialing kind of tires out the
indications but Squelch, the indications
did show around the 33 all the way up
to 47 so I'll have to narrow that range
as I crank it up again in that area with
your info on the different parking of
the wheels. So thanks again and
I'll keep trying, not giving up yet
although the indications tend to
give up. By the way I tend to feel
the fence movement a lot more when
the indications are working. We'll
see what happens when I crank up
again. Thanks all of you for your
help. It gives me encouragement
to not give up even though it's
going to be a long haul.

Thanks again, till later, zandan

[zandan]

that's great! so now, try parking wheel 2 on 20 and graph 1 and 3 together
(yes, it's gonna be a lot of dialing) and then see if 1 or 3 show up anything
good at 10 or 30. You could also park wheel 1 and 3 on 20 just to see if maybe
it was 10-30-20 not 10-20-30, the memory has a funny way of making numbers change
places after not using something like a safe combination for a while.

keep up the effort!
Squelchtone

Yes Squelch, you could very well be right about
the memory having a funny way of making numbers
change places after not using something like a safe combination for a while.

With this in mind and narrowing in on the 38 to 45 area,
I've found that the indications get narrower and narrower
around 39 and 42. After working this area with the parking
as you described above I think I may have one of the
numbers of either a 40 or 41 but can't continue
because the indications dropped off again even
with heating up the dial/spline before looking
for the indications. Will give it a rest again and
crank up when 'the dial is rested.' But think I have
a pretty good shot at one of these two numbers
as being one of the combo numbers. But what
does Gordon say? Something like, 'just when you
think you've got it, you've got more to learn and
the simple solutions are usually the best ones.'
(Don't have Gordon's quote completely correct but
I think I have the gist of the message correct)

We'll see when I crank it again. Hope all of the
heating up of the gunk doesn't compromise the
lock components in any way. I'll just have to
wait and keep trying.

Until then, I'll be focusing on the 40 and 41 as
one of the numbers and then if all goes well
I'll try to figure out which wheel I'm working with.
My memory would surly be off with the 10 20 30
being the only combo numbers if the 40 or 41 is
one of the numbers.

Until then, hasta la vista, baby, zandan

[GWiens2001]

Zandan,

You are making progress, and are clearly learning a lot from the process of learning to open the safe. That is great.

When you do get it open (and my money is on you succeeding given time), be sure to disassemble the lock (take pictures as you go, and be sure of what faces what direction, so you can get it back together) and clean off the gunk. The lock will work much better.

Gordon

[zandan]

Boy oh boy all of you,
I cranked up again with another heat gun
protocol on the dial/spline.

This time I still get the contact point at 2.0
but the indications are way out away from
what I had been getting. I was hopeful of
getting indications around the low 40 area
but there is nothing there at all this time around.

The indications have moved out to between
the 55 mark and the 85 mark. Well I'll just have
to map this area of the dial and see what happens.
I already did one mapping with very small indications
but nothing that I believe to be significant.

I will continue to map in this area and when
finished I will shutdown again and wait awhile
before manipulating again. Hopefully I'll get
what I think I should be indications in the low 40 area because
the indications were strong and narrow enough
there the last time to make me choose the 40
or the 41 from mapping as one of the combo numbers.
However, when I did this the last time
I've got to admit that the indications did drop off
and I couldn't do as complete of a mapping in
the 40 area as I wanted to.

Oh well onto another section of the dial.
Boy this lock has got to be a safecracker's
nightmare let alone a criminal safecracker's
real nightmare when trying to open it in
a limited amount of time. A criminal just has
to give up quick and start drilling.

But not me yet. I'll just keep trying and
I'll just have to take consolation in Gordon's
admonishment of ...."just when you think you've
got it, you don't....."

That's all for now folks, zandan

[Squelchtone]

I'd like to hear or see how you are actually mapping out.. are you dialing a wheel or multiple wheels to let's say x on the dial, and then you go back to the contact area and see if it is 2.0, 2.1, 2.2, 2.5, and then dialing back to the x and doing x+1 or x-1 and then going back to see the area where you felt something at around 2 to see if it changed from the last few results?

all of this will be for not if proper procedures are not followed. Plus.. consider how much your time is worth versus just paying that locksmith friend his few hundred and be done with it, I know you said there was some pending business that required some items from the safe in some nearby upcoming time and date.

well, at least you're learning a new thing.. its good to learn new things. good luck and have a good weekend,
Squelchtone

[zandan]

Hello Squelch,
Yes I am going back to the contact point
of 2 each time and this contact point never
really changes to 2.1 or 2.5 etc. or down 1.9 or
1.95, etc.

The contact point usually stays fairly constant,
well maybe once or twice I might get a change
either up or down as above but 95 percent of
the time the cp stays at 2.0

I usually go out either 10 points on the dial
either up or down from the contact point (well
I really mean always dialing to the right from
the contact point and then back to the cp)
and then I've tried variations either up or down
all the way up or down to 50.

50 seems to be the most relevant number to
park the wheels at. My overall problem all the time
is that for this Yale OC5 is the dumping of
the indications altogether wherein I just have
to stop and wait awhile before manipulating
again and then doing the heat gun to bring
the indications back.

The dumping of the indications is pretty much
what happens and much of the time it's when
I'm trying to complete a mapping sequence
and then I can't complete the mapping
sequence until the indications pick up again.

I will say this though. I believe that either the 40 or 41 is
one of the numbers and I've been able to
figure out that it is most likely the last number on
this 3 wheel lock. With that being said,
my memory of when I was able to open the
safe years ago was that the 10 was the last number
to go to for the drop and with the 40 or
41 being the 3rd number it would mean
that I would have a stop at the 10 for the
lock to engage the opening lever to have
the safe open correct?

(I can hear Gordon again"...just when you
think you know it all, you don't...)

I'm working on getting the first and second
wheel which is a B___h because of all the
indications dropping/dumping and this
will take more time in trial dialing.

So that's what I've come up with so far
if you see some correction I need to
make in my procedures please let me
know, ok?

Over and out, zandan

[zandan]

Ola,Ola,
Still working at this Yale oc5.
I'd hoped Squelch would weigh in
on my last post before my posting
again, but no matter.

I'm using the 10 40 and 10 41 numbers
to assist me in manipulating this lock.
I think I've come to the conclusion tha
10 is just the number the dial has to go to
when opening and the 10 is not
really part of the 3 number combo.
40 and 41 I believe are what I need to work
with.

Parking with sets of anywhere from 19 all
the way up to 39 in adding combo numbers
in various permutations thereof with the
40 or 41 is pretty much where I'm at.

Of course this is a lot of dialing with mapping
also taking place at various times. However,
with the mapping, as most of you know
by now, is not too consistent because
of the indications dropping off with this
lock too much of the time.

Be that as it may, I'm getting fairly good
indications now around the 20 to 35 area;
and when mapping this is where I'll be
concentrating on in the immediate future.

Well all, Sayonara, for now
P.S. Anyone following this thread, always
remember Gordon's,GWweins2001, admonition..
"....when you think you know it all, you
will find out that you don't..."

[zandan]

Not getting any replies to
my last two posts. I thought I
heard someone mention
that there was some kind of a
meet up or convention of lock pickers.
Maybe that's where everyone is and
they can't be in two places at once,
there and here at lock picking 101.
Oh well, I believe I'm pretty much on my
way to getting this safe open.

The only thing that keeps and
holds me back is the continuous
dropping of indications. This makes
it hard to have complete mapping
sequences much of the time, but
I'll just have to work my way through it.

As I park the wheels at 50 and work
the lock with as many wheels as I
think I've got, I'm feeling 25 28 33 34
36 and 39. I believe I can feel the
fence move or attempt to move in
here too. There's just too many
combinations to try to predict just
what numbers I'll have to use.

One thing that helps me with putting
combos together is a visual basic macro
that i got off the internet. It is pretty
old and it comes from some computer
geek in Egypt or Iran. It allows for
up to 9 numbers to be entered in a
Microsoft Excel worksheet and will run
all of the permutations and combinations
possible for any number set up to 9 numbers.

It's really pretty neat and it really helps
me when I have many different combos
to try.
Anybody wanting this macro, let me know
and I'll get the internet posting that it
was on. Don't have it right now but
will be able to do so with the right
search in google or I could just copy
and paste mine to an attachment here
at Lockpicking 101. I'm not too sure
how this would be done here but
one of the moderators will have to direct
me on how to do it. To just put it into
reply post like this one will make the
post quite long and involved.

So I'll see what happens from here
on out.

That's it for now, zandan

[Squelchtone]

I was out getting more beer and popcorn, just sitting back until you open it =) some days we just dont have anything useful or witty to add. But I will say, I am wondering why you keep parking on 50... I still have a feeling you may not be dialing and testing wheels out in the traditional manner.

imagine the safe wheel as being a hand drawn circle on a piece of paper.. or a bike tire that has been abused.. it will become eccentric and higher or lower at some positions. from afar it still looks like a pretty decent circle but it more than likely is not. The same holds true for your safe wheels, they are not perfectly round, there are high spots, low spots, a nice curve here and there, and the true gates of course.

With parking a wheel or two wheels on 50, while mapping out another wheel, you may be screwing yourself if there happens to be a high spot at 50 on one of the wheels you have parked. I know the book says to park opposite your contact point area, but that is only for counting wheel pick up, not for actual graphing. they say this so you do not mix up the fence trying the wheel pack for the sound of pins and flys hitting each other as additional wheels are picked up.

Short of filming you a video of me graphing my old Mosler friction fence lock, I'm not sure how to explain it other than a page long multi step manual.

I'd start parking wheels on known combination numbers or suspected numbers in your case.. park 1 and 2 on 20 and map out wheel 3 0 to 99, or park just wheel 1 on 10, 20 or 30, and then graph out wheels 2 and 3 together and see if anything new shows up.

hope this helps,
Squelchtone

[zandan]

I am wondering why you keep parking on 50... I still
have a feeling you may not be dialing and testing
wheels out in the traditional manner.

With parking a wheel or two wheels on 50,
while mapping out another wheel, you may
be screwing yourself if there happens to be
a high spot at 50 on one of the wheels you
have parked. I know the book says to park
opposite your contact point area, but
not for actual graphing. they say this so
you do not mix up the fence trying the wheel pack

start parking wheels on known combination numbers
or suspected numbers in your case.. park 1 and
2 on 20 and map out wheel 3 0 to 99, or park just
wheel 1 on 10, 20 or 30, and then graph out wheels
2 and 3 together and see if anything new shows up.

Yeah Squelch, you may have caught me doing
something wrong. That's why I took the salient
parts of what you said and gave them bold and
an underline. I've got to be reminded that
this is a friction fence lock and with what I've
been getting with probably highs and lows is what
I've been interpreting as the friction fence
trying lock.

I'll use your advice on these suggestions and
hope the indications don't drop off before
I complete a graph sequence, but if they do
then I'll just have to wade through this and
try again.

Tx for the advice, I'll keep trying, zandan

[femurat]

I'd start parking wheels on known combination numbers or suspected numbers in your case.. park 1 and 2 on 20 and map out wheel 3 0 to 99, or park just wheel 1 on 10, 20 or 30, and then graph out wheels 2 and 3 together and see if anything new shows up.

Great suggestion, but start mapping wheel 3 at 20, not at 0. If you start at 0 once you reach 20 you pick up wheel 2 too and the results get screwed.

Cheers

[zandan]

Ok, good suggestion
about starting at 20 instead of
at 0.

I'm already working in the 20 area
on one mapping sequence. I'll
finish that one for whatever/however
I've done it with the mistakes.

The next mapping will start at 30
and I'll try your advice femerat(sp?)

Thanks for the heads up, all of you
out there, your comments make
me want to continue manipulation
of this yale oc5 instead of giving up.

Till later, zandan, out

[femurat]

femerat(sp?)

I don't get what this means. I've tried googling it and a blonde pornstar came out... I'm not her if this is what you were asking

Cheers

[Squelchtone]

Ok, good suggestion
about starting at 20 instead of
at 0.

I'm already working in the 20 area
on one mapping sequence. I'll
finish that one for whatever/however
I've done it with the mistakes.

The next mapping will start at 30
and I'll try your advice femerat(sp?)

Thanks for the heads up, all of you
out there, your comments make
me want to continue manipulation
of this yale oc5 instead of giving up.

Till later, zandan, out

can you write up an example of graphing a wheel of your choice, just so we can see if we're all on the same page on the procedure? Are you using graph paper or just keeping a list of interesting numbers?

Also, the point of graphing is to find changes in the contact area at the contact point, not to just "map"/write down/graph where you may hear things bumping or grinding along the wheels circumference. I think you know this, but I'm writing it out just to make sure, not trying to talk down to you or anything like that.

Also, if you want to quote someone, just click the red Quote box (in the top right corner of the persons post, near their name and profile info), so it will auto quote and you wont have to copy and paste what you want to quote.

talk soon,
Squelchtone

[zandan]

femerat(sp?)

I don't get what this means. I've tried googling it and a blonde pornstar came out... I'm not her if this is what you were asking

Cheers

Well femurat, I didn't mean to send you
to a pornsite. The (sp?) means that I
wasn't too sure of the spelling of
your moniker here at Lockpicking 101

zandan