I was just online searching for another lock to buy and I ran into this expensive behemoth. Why is it so expensive and what would I expect in finding inside the lock? (Pinwise) Etc...
It's got a Medeco Biaxial core. As for the expense, it's probably overpriced since it's made for the US Gov't but it has ceramic inserts and special alloys to resist basically any physical attack.
spandexwarrior wrote:It's got a Medeco Biaxial core. As for the expense, it's probably overpriced since it's made for the US Gov't but it has ceramic inserts and special alloys to resist basically any physical attack.
-Brian
+1 well put.
Look into Sargent Greenleaf 833 padlock for many more photos on google image search the model 951 just came out, is 1/4 inch taller and offers more cylinder drill protection.
These padlocks are meant to be used on a NAPEC hasp, google that as well.
Here's a video I put when I picked my first 833 back in the day, shows you the internals (sorry for shaky cell phone video):
KPick wrote:Great answers you guys. Thanks. I hope one day I get good enough to pick open a Medeco Biaxial. I've heard those things are difficult to open.
Oh you will!
Medeco's aren't that difficult. I say this because I'm not advanced and have opened Medeco's. Sure I still take long, but that's proof that it can be done without being a pro!
About the padlock itself. Well, it's freaking anihalation proof! You can pretty much do anything you want with it and it will stay unharmed. Place a bomb on a box. Close it with that padlock. Let it blow. You will find it sitting somewhere far away without a scratch. That's why they are so expensive!
(I know I'm exagerating! But you get the point! )
Go ahead, keep plugging away, picking on me! You will end up on bypass or with rigor mortise. - GWiens2001
Angle Grinder opens em' every time. But that's what the government wants. If the padlock can be opened surreptitiously then they won't know their secrets have been compromised.
If the padlock gets destroyed by the opening method then they know they need to change whatever secret passwords or plans the padlock was protecting.
Years ago the government used an S&G dial combo padlock, EXPENSIVE! But the strange part was, the shackle diameter was not much bigger than a pencil. Easy to cut. But if the shackle was cut, they Knew someone had been snooping.
I was just online searching for another lock to buy and I ran into this expensive behemoth. Why is it so expensive and what would I expect in finding inside the lock? (Pinwise) Etc...
Where did you see it and what was the price? Retail price on the lock from S&G is over $1000 but their main customer is the US Govt and they don't pay that price You will find the older S&G locks like 831, 833, 826, etc. on the secondary market (sometimes not even removed from the original box) for $150-$300 depending on condition and number of keys. Sometimes they go for as little as $50, especially if missing keys, or worn out/damaged. I know of one military surplus seller who got a bunch of them and sold them out cheap, and that was only a couple of years ago (831). One good thing to know is that the 'control key' (which allows the core to come out) for S&G locks is just a regular key that has had a part of the shoulder cut down which allows the plug to rotate in the opposite direction.
I believe they all use a restricted Medeco keyway- can anyone comment on this? I am looking for a source of blanks.
The Military/DoD ones use D4, DoD Contractors and other US Gov't use R1 and the S1 is for commercial/foreign. I've never heard of them use anything but those three. Any Medeco dealer can get S1 blanks but probably not ones that are long enough to be used in a 831, 833 or 951. Blanks for the other keyways probably never leave the factory, especially not the S&G format bows/shoulders. You could make any of these with a keyway king or easy entrie though.
Thanks for the info! I am not familiar with those names for Medeco keyways. I am somewhat confused over the different keyway terminology such as as Air 00, Sky, M3, etc, Level 1, Level 2. The blanks I can find online seem to use the Ilco style numbers like 1515, 1517. Is there a cross-reference mapping these against the R1, S1, type of keyway descriptors?
somenewguy wrote:Thanks for the info! I am not familiar with those names for Medeco keyways. I am somewhat confused over the different keyway terminology such as as Air 00, Sky, M3, etc, Level 1, Level 2. The blanks I can find online seem to use the Ilco style numbers like 1515, 1517. Is there a cross-reference mapping these against the R1, S1, type of keyway descriptors?
It is confusing and there is a lot of info that is probably not known by anyone outside of Medeco. Essentially every keyway is restricted and has special requirements to get blanks. The exceptions are 00 and S1 which are the standard/commercial keyways for Original and Biaxial.
I'm not sure that Ilco's part number matches up with anything from Medeco, they are probably unique to Ilco. I can look at the ones above and try to get the Medeco designations for each. basically original keyways will be 2 digits, Biaxial are an alpha and a digit, and M3 is three alphas (00, S1, DLT). Remember that the aftermarket blanks you'll find will only be for the major programs where it makes sense to produce them in a large quantity. There won't be blanks for anything that is still in patent, and no authorized medeco dealer that is on contract will use non-original blanks so the market is somewhat limited.
The best source of info on all this is the Medeco technical manual for each system. It will describe each program, how to identify keys by the shape and marking on the bows, etc. it doesn't have any drawings or pictures of the keyways though. It's also somewhat hard to get and I've never seen a copy online.
somenewguy wrote:Thanks for the info! I am not familiar with those names for Medeco keyways. I am somewhat confused over the different keyway terminology such as as Air 00, Sky, M3, etc, Level 1, Level 2. The blanks I can find online seem to use the Ilco style numbers like 1515, 1517. Is there a cross-reference mapping these against the R1, S1, type of keyway descriptors?
Stop looking, you will not find blanks for the 02 DoD keyway used by the old 826/831/hi-shear locks. Also 1970's Medeco keyways were 00 Air, 02 DoD, 04 Sky, the level 1 and 2 thing always confused me as well, and I know the cross references you went to list the level info.
You will also not find blanks for the D4, R1, or S1 Biaxial keyways used in the 833 and 951 padlocks. (They do not make these in M3 technology, only in 2nd generation biaxial) As already mentioned, a locksmith can order you a cylinder with keys for the S1 commercial keyway, but they will never sell you blanks. That's part of Medeco's security, blanks for restricted keyways only available to locksmiths who are Medeco authorized to have them, and then only for the purpose of cutting additional customer keys, not just reselling the blanks.
What you will find out there is some cylinders and keys on ebay so if you only have 1 key with your old lock, and I assume you're trying to key them up to have a control key and 2 operator keys, then just get another cylinder and keys, the 833 cylinders are on ebay now for $27 from a seller who has like 50 of them. If you have an 833 padlock and want to make 20 keys for it because you and your buddies want to lock up a gate out at the farm or shooting range or something, you wont be able to find 20 blanks anywhere, all you can do is order and 833 cylinder with S1 keyway for $95 bucks with the 3 keys and pay $15 buck per each additional key.
I have done a ridiculous amount of research on this very topic in the last 8 years, so that's why I say stop looking, you'll just end up spinning your wheels.
I have already purchased some of the 833 cores+keys on ebay. However the tailpiece is different so they won't fit the 831. There are 831/826 cores with keys on ebay too but but more expensive.
I agree it's not likely blanks will show up but I think it's possible, you find all kinds of weird stuff for sale, especially when locksmiths or distributors close up shop. I would not have thought the 833 cores with 3 keys (obviously brand new from a govt overrun) would have ever showed up for sale either.
That being said, looking into the keyways for the Medecos just got me interested in the Medeco keyways in general. Unlike Best SFICs, finding info about the Medeco keyways online is pretty difficult. The only pictures/diagrams I found were the very old keyways with expired patents that have been available as blanks for some time.
As was mentioned, a Keyway King could make them, but I don't know anyone who has one. One can always cast a copy of a key (low melting point metals aren't that strong) or try to machine one out of brass stock (time consuming).
I had those locks on my ordinance lockers when I was in the navy. I hated them, the salt from the sea air would lock them up. Don't know how many keys me or my co workers broke in them. The key's were weak as crap too, they would crack from looking at them funny. I do not miss having to mess with those on a daily basis.
GrzyWhop33 wrote:I had those locks on my ordinance lockers when I was in the navy. I hated them, the salt from the sea air would lock them up. Don't know how many keys me or my co workers broke in them. The key's were weak as crap too, they would crack from looking at them funny. I do not miss having to mess with those on a daily basis.
GrzyWhop33; Thank you for your service to our country and - Do you know if the Navy had a recommended Preventative Maintenance schedule for the locks?
They did, but it was every couple of months. The maintenance card to clean and lubricate, that you had to follow step by step, didn't cut the mustard on maintaining it. Plus, even though it was my lock, I could not order replacements and did not have the control key. I had to get that from the armory. Then, there were no spare locks to place on the locker to keep it secure while I cleaned the lock, so there we sat outside, ship rocking side to side, trying not to lose the ball bearings, using solvents and oil that just didn't work, cleaning the locks. The maintenance requirements for those locks did not do them justice.
You will find the older S&G locks like 831, 833, 826, etc. on the secondary market (sometimes not even removed from the original box) for $150-$300 depending on condition and number of keys. Sometimes they go for as little as $50, especially if missing keys, or worn out/damaged. I know of one military surplus seller who got a bunch of them and sold them out cheap, and that was only a couple of years ago (831). One good thing to know is that the 'control key' (which allows the core to come out) for S&G locks is just a regular key that has had a part of the shoulder cut down which allows the plug to rotate in the opposite direction.