SAVTA vs. NSO

[MSL]

Hello,

I'm a locksmith student currently studying to take my state License exam.

When I got to the part of my course about safes and safe deposit boxes I was really fascinated. They're really interesting to me and I think its something I'd like to study more in depth.

I was wondering if anyone had any input on the National Safeman's Organization and/or the Save and Vault Technicians Association. I am thinking it would be beneficial to join one of them to have greater access to study materials and trade journals etc. I know both of them offer a certification program to work towards.

Does anyone have any opinion on which is the better group, which has the better journal, etc? Any opinions on the certifications, is one better, are they equally good or both pointless? This doesn't seem like the easiest aspect of the locksmithing business to break into (pun intended), so I figure I should try to find help where I can.

Thanks.

[MSL]

I wasn't sure if I should put this here or in the safe area, so if its in the wrong section I apologize.

[billdeserthills]

I am a member of the NSO and I have been opening safes since 1994, but I work in a small town so I likely open fewer safes than many others do. I bought most of my safe books from The National Locksmith, and they were put together by Dave McOmie, who is quite the safe cracker! As a member of the NSO you will get a bond card, and every three months a magazine filled with safe opening will come to your door. The magazine always has a tool special, and for example the special this month is your choice of a 13" long 0 degree 5mm diameter scope or a 7" long 30 degree 4mm dia. scope for only $399. I didn't buy either as I never really bought the whole "micro drilling" thing and I already have a couple of scopes. One nice thing about the NSO is (at least when I joined) you get your choice of safe books at no cost with your membership, and when you renew often times there is a safe book that you can pay a reduced amount for. As far as the certification goes, it means little to nothing to me, as my clients don't know the difference anyhow. There aren't really any study materials with the NSO, unless you save every quarterly edition (which I do) and even so I don't have the time usually to consult these past issues before quoting a price and opening the container anyhow. I have called upon Dave McOmie once or twice over the years and he has always gotten back to me with an answer to my questions, so that is worth something. The NSO seems to like to advertise their "Penetration Parties" where a locksmith will get a bunch of safes together and then as a NSO member you will get a discount to join in & open these containers. I never could see the point in paying someone for the oppertunity to do some hard work, so you won't see me there. Also I don't recall seeing anything about opening safe deposit locks in the NSO materials, but how many options can exist there, right?

[MSL]

Well I have read a couple ways to open a safe deposit box, never actually done it though, but learning to take them apart and service them would seem like something good to learn and practice a bit. But I'm sure when I got the handle of it that would be that. They seem to not change much in tech in order to provide longevity. I'm curious, how much work do banks have regarding those boxes?


I actually wouldn't mind going to a penetration party. For someone like me with no experience who wants to get into it, that sounds like an ideal way to watch up close and get myself some decent realistic practice.

[billdeserthills]

The only times I ever was called upon to do work on safe deposit locks is when the bank's customer loses their key & the bank wants me to come & open the box, install a new safe deposit lock and rekey the guard side to the bank's key. They never call and say, oh our locks need some attention-
could you come by and repair some of them before they fail to save us money--Never.

If you wanna take apart safe deposit locks you can get a parts kit and a few different locks and teach yourself for far less money.

Far as paying hundreds of $$$ to get to work on someone else's safes, what I did was to buy every safe book that dealt with models I might hafta open, in my area. That cost me at least $1,000 just for the cheap books that I got, with the binding falling apart (thanks National Lock you cheap bastards).
Now you will need a scope, the couple I have cost me another $1,000 and I waited for sales before I bought them. Otherwise you could open safes the way I used to before I got the scopes, which is time consuming. And I call that the Swiss Cheese method. You start by drilling where the book tells you, if that doesn't work just pull out that lucky Big drill bit and try some more. You would be surprised at the holes my welder has fixed for me, but I did manage to repair the safes my clients wanted to put back into service and they have stayed fixed for many years now.
Oh I forgot to mention the drill rigs I bought, add another $1,000 for those. Anyhow I also forgot All the hardplate drill bits and diamond drill bits & carbide hole saws and all the other stuff that currently resides in my safe-opening toolbox that costs money, but just sits there until you use it, cause when you need a "ball buster" tool now you better be able to find it in your lucky toolbox fella. Ditto on replacement locks, dials, handles most of which just sits around collecting dust (in my area anyhow.

[MSL]

Well now I'm depressed.

[billdeserthills]

I didn't start out by spending all that money overnight, but in the beginning I swiss cheesed several safes due to my lack of knowledge. The local welder used to charge me $5 per hole to weld them all shut and I saved up and bought safe books. Then I realized one day I needed a way to look around inside my hole so I saved up and bought a scope, a cheap one like the Hawkeye borescope. I think the NSO is a good way to begin as you will get a discount on the Safe Opening books and the tool specials can be very good as well.

[MSL]

Sounds like a good deal. I looked up McOmie's website. If I join for 2 years I get 3 books, and I think each of the books normally cost more than a year of dues so it looks like I'll do that.

I'll study and see what kind of practice I'm able to get here and there. Maybe it'll end up being something I'm good at. It would be about time I found something that I am.

[MSL]

If you're still checking out this thread, I was curious. Does a drill press come in handy for this kind of thing?

[billdeserthills]

If you're still checking out this thread, I was curious. Does a drill press come in handy for this kind of thing?

Never helped me out any, Now if you were talking about a magnetic drill press like the baby bux unit that would be different http://www.alibaba.com/showroom/bux-mag ... press.html
even so, the magnetic drill press will only fit onto certain safes, so you will need something else too.
I have a Strongarm mini rig pro which is smaller https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XR1D6Bj0fD0
and since I got it I haven't used my standard drill rig much, as the strongarm has been very good for drilling a bad lock or an unknown combo. Not very good for drilling a relocker tho as you would hafta drill & tap holes to affix it to the safe.

[MSL]

Thanks for the leads, I appreciate the help.

[billdeserthills]

Sounds like a good deal. I looked up McOmie's website. If I join for 2 years I get 3 books, and I think each of the books normally cost more than a year of dues so it looks like I'll do that.

I'll study and see what kind of practice I'm able to get here and there. Maybe it'll end up being something I'm good at. It would be about time I found something that I am.

Long as you can follow instructions and don't get all panicky when thinks go wrong you'll do fine
The safe books will tell you where to drill and as long as they don't transpose pictures it's not too hard.

[MSL]

I've decided to go take the week long mechanical/electronic safe lock servicing class at LSI in October. I need hands-on before I ever actually try to charge money for something I've only read in a book. Ideally I want to fix broken things, not make them worse.

[2octops]

Couple of things I'll toss out there...

SAVTA and NSO are both good organizations. Penetration parties are just that, parties. There is something to be said for opening a bunch of locked containers over the course of a couple of days, but there is a lot more to be said for the networking opportunities that are to be had at these events. The friendships that are formed are invaluable especially for someone that is just getting into the business. I've got friends all across the country that I can simply call or text a quick question to and get an immediate answer. Yes, McComie is more than willing to help any way he can if you ask nice. There are hundreds just like him across the country.

Safes are not difficult as long as you know what you are doing and have the proper equipment to work on them. It's not hard or expensive to simply service them, but if you want to get into openings it's going to cost you. What a lot of guys do is find someone in their area that is a safe tech and sub the jobs out while tagging along to tote tools and watch. Drill rigs, bits, scopes and jigs are expensive and the experience to know how to properly use those tools can only be gained one way.

Safe deposit locks do not just live in banks. Most commercial safes have inner compartments that use these same locks. Most hotels also have banks of safe deposit boxes for their customers to use that require service on a very regular basis. Banks typically have a contract with a company that services all of their safes, vaults and boxes so don't expect to hear from them to much. I saw a Craigslist ad for one of these companies looking for safe deposit box techs for $13 per hour and you provide your own transportation. I can work at the local feed store making that kind of money.

These locks are elementary and very simple to work on. Used to, you actually worked on them but now you just pop them open and replace with a new lock. These can be big business if you get in with the right customers. One or two books (or a short class) and a few specialty tools and you can be ready to work on these quickly without a large investment.

[billdeserthills]

I've decided to go take the week long mechanical/electronic safe lock servicing class at LSI in October. I need hands-on before I ever actually try to charge money for something I've only read in a book. Ideally I want to fix broken things, not make them worse.

You won't be fixing any electronic safe locks, specially not in the field & not at all, unless you like drilling the same safe open after your "repaired" lock breaks again. Even mechanical safe locks are rarely fixed, the one exception I can think of is for the Star lift-off round door. I have rebuilt several of those and I have opened a few as well. Most other mechanical safe locks that I run into get replaced and then thoroughly tested, before I leave. You can learn how to fix a safe door, but I highly doubt they will be teaching that at the expensive seminar you attend.

I gave up on most of those seminars after going to a few of them. I find more than anything else they are a waste of money and time. I do agree that buying and stocking all the electronic safe locks you may run into, along with all the opening tools you might need and all the books and replacement mechanical safe locks & parts you might need is no party, that is just what I started to do, back in 1990. Instead of spending $1,000 on a seminar I bought a new borescope, or some more hardplate drills, or a mini-rig. You will find that opening safes can cost you a scary amount of money and that is just buying a couple of tools. Then after that you'll wait by the phone for someone to call and if they don't like your price they'll just call another #.

I don't do any high security safe or vault opening, although I do have many books on the subject. I would hafta start stocking long hardplate drill bits to do that, and a whole different series of parts too.

You could likely save a bunch of money and just buy some DVD's on safe opening. Prolly just like being there minus the sweat & metal splinters in your skin