First Key Impression

[Divinorum]

Well, It's not really a legitimate impression because I did the filing with the plug out of the cylinder so I could check the heights of the key pins every so often. However, this was my first time filing a pin and tumbler key and the good news is that my key works. It may not look nice but it dose work I used a simple triangle shaped file. I'm sure there is a better file I could use. I think I would get better results with a #4 cut round Pippin file and that seems to be what everyone else uses.

Here is a picture.

http://i57.tinypic.com/33m33x5.jpg

The top is the original key and the bottom is my hand filed key. From looking at it I can tell I need to work on keeping my cuts straighter. I also see that the roots of my cuts are not flat at the bottom despite my efforts to flatten it out and not have such an extreme V shape. I should have deburred the key also. Does anyone have any tips on how to get the root to be flat and not have such an extreme angle? File recommendations? Or any other tips based on the picture? Thanks everyone

[silvfox1200]

After looking at the top key, I would say you need some more practice. I would round off the points just a little so it does not hang up in the key. I went to Lowes and bought a cheap set of small files and they work just fine. I have made several keys this way as well as four keys just by impression. They all look great and work just fine except one hangs a little bit but still works great.. I am taking a course for a locksmith.

Anyway the key looks just fine for a first key. I think I would try to use a round file next time and still remove any sharp points to avoid hanging in the key..

Thanks

[Divinorum]

After looking at the top key, I would say you need some more practice. I would round off the points just a little so it does not hang up in the key. I went to Lowes and bought a cheap set of small files and they work just fine. I have made several keys this way as well as four keys just by impression. They all look great and work just fine except one hangs a little bit but still works great.. I am taking a course for a locksmith.

Anyway the key looks just fine for a first key. I think I would try to use a round file next time and still remove any sharp points to avoid hanging in the key..

Thanks

I clearly need much more practice I'll get a better assortment of files and do just that. I will definitely try filing down the peaks a tiny bit. Any tips as far as flattening out the bottom of the valleys where the pin sits? I believe the pin should sit flat contacting the key entirely and not just sit contacting the sides of the cut.

[Raymond]

Find a round chainsaw sharpening file. It is a bit too coarse of a cut for true impressioning but is still very useable just to file a key. These should be very easy to find and considerably cheaper than a locksmith file with fine teeth.

[billdeserthills]

Many locksmiths in Mexico don't even use key machines to duplicate keys, only their eyes, a blank and a file, poor bastards.
You'll find a pippen file is different from a round file, it is shocking how much the pippen files cost nowadays and they aren't really any much better than the round file is anyhow
I can tell you if you used your handmade key to make a copy from in a key machine chances are the copy wouldn't work as your spacing is too narrow, but as a key I'm sure it works fine and you could likely get 25 cents for it in Mexico

[Divinorum]

Many locksmiths in Mexico don't even use key machines to duplicate keys, only their eyes, a blank and a file, poor bastards.
You'll find a pippen file is different from a round file, it is shocking how much the pippen files cost nowadays and they aren't really any much better than the round file is anyhow
I can tell you if you used your handmade key to make a copy from in a key machine chances are the copy wouldn't work as your spacing is too narrow, but as a key I'm sure it works fine and you could likely get 25 cents for it in Mexico

Okay so round file is the way to go. I'm going to try and pickup the one you posted that was on special. And I see what you mean. If i tried to duplicate this key the copy would not be functional. I would be better off just measuring the depths or the pins with some calipers and compare the measurements with the depth and spacing chart. Then cut the key by code so the spacing and depths would be accurate. Bill any recommendations on how to get the bottom of the valleys to be more flat so the pin seats correctly? My file would not fit at the bottom without hitting the side of the cuts.

[billdeserthills]

You will hafta file the sides away, leaving a flat at the bottoms. But honestly most any key that is hand filed will need a little more hand-filing to fit correctly after a copy of it is machine made.

[KPick]

At least you got into impressioning. One question that I have to ask though. Do security pins of different kinds impression? (Spools/Serrated)? I'd like to start a thread on it, but the question is just a simple answer.

[Raymond]

When I first started I had to cut a lot of keys by hand. With no one to instruct I settled on the technique of using a round chainsaw sharpening file to make the vertical cuts. A 1/8" may be too small and a 1/4" may be too large. Use one somewhere in between. On shallow cuts this was no problem and the bevel on the pins rode over the cut. With deeper cuts the side of the round cut came too far up and blocked the pin. So then I used a triangular file to make the ramps smooth. A standard triangular file messes up the round bottom of the cuts and looks rough so I then ground and polished off one corner of the file so it cannot cut downward. It can only cut on the flat and make good ramps. It sits on the bottom of the cut and by tilting the file you can make the ramp whatever angle suits you. I have been using this same file for 40 years when I hand file keys or clean up machine cut ones.

Most spool or serrated pins have almost no effect on cutting a key by hand or when impressioning. It is possible to see an effect if the bottom pins are cut out so as to rise up off of the surface of the key when pressure is applied. This can happen if the pin and pin hole is threaded.

[billdeserthills]

At least you got into impressioning. One question that I have to ask though. Do security pins of different kinds impression? (Spools/Serrated)? I'd like to start a thread on it, but the question is just a simple answer.

Since only the bottom pins will ever touch your keyblank the security/spool driver pins will have no effect

[KPick]

At least you got into impressioning. One question that I have to ask though. Do security pins of different kinds impression? (Spools/Serrated)? I'd like to start a thread on it, but the question is just a simple answer.

Since only the bottom pins will ever touch your keyblank the security/spool driver pins will have no effect

Awesome. Thanks! I've been wondering for a couple of months, but kept forgetting about the question ever since.

[phrygianradar]

This seemed like a good place to put my post as well, so I hope nobody minds very much… Don't mean to hijack your thread Divinorum

I got this Master lock no.17 up in Big Bear a LONG time ago at an antique store for five bucks and have been trying to impression a key for it almost as long; with no success. I was spending so much time and being very careful and still no go! Finally I got it to impression tonight! Oh my, what a great feeling! I was going to be done for the night and was doing my last pass before giving up and scrapping the key to start over another time; like I said, I had been down this road before, like 7 or 8 times…

The last time I jiggled the key in the plug I though that I had snapped the key off in it because it gave all of a sudden! When I looked down there she was all finished! And I have to say, not to toot my own horn (toot, toot) it is like butter! So smooth… Anyway, here are a few pics of the aftermath. I would have taken shots along the way but I had no real intention of succeeding. I know that sounds kind of defeatist, but seriously after as many times as I tried with no success, it is just the reality. I guess practice make perfect; not that I'm prefect, far from it, but I got my first five pin Master lock impressioned!







Thanks for checking it out!

[1mrchristopher]

Nicely done!

[Divinorum]

Congrats man! That's an awesome looking key. Since posting this thread I have tried to blindly impression a Schlage knockoff with a C keyway and am not having any luck yet. Identifying the marks is proving to be difficult. I was using the method where you give the top of the key a few passes with the file before jiggling and then after the marks are supposed to standout among the file marks.

I think the problem could be either the vice or vice grips. The suction cup vice is not very sturdy and gives when jiggling. The vice grips also have some give because they don't grip the whole bow of the key. It only grips in 1 spot at the narrowest point of the jaws. After resolving those issues if I still cant see anything I would like to try the marker method. Anyways, great work!

[phrygianradar]

Congrats man! That's an awesome looking key. Since posting this thread I have tried to blindly impression a Schlage knockoff with a C keyway and am not having any luck yet. Identifying the marks is proving to be difficult. I was using the method where you give the top of the key a few passes with the file before jiggling and then after the marks are supposed to standout among the file marks.

I think the problem could be either the vice or vice grips. The suction cup vice is not very sturdy and gives when jiggling. The vice grips also have some give because they don't grip the whole bow of the key. It only grips in 1 spot at the narrowest point of the jaws. After resolving those issues if I still cant see anything I would like to try the marker method. Anyways, great work!

Thank you, and those are great ideas. I had an idea that I had never heard before, although I am sure that others may have thought of it as well. I was having a very hard time identifying marks as well and had tried a flame and markers etc., but then I got some 600 grit sand paper, cut a small strip (like really small!) and after making my filings I would wrap that sand paper around my file and gently buff the key cuts that I was working on. When they were nice and smooth again I would jiggle the key only about 10 times or so; not too much. If it made any roughing of the smoothness, I would give it another go with the file and then buff it again with the sand paper. It was a bit time consuming, but it finally worked! I am sure some of the better impressioners may have an opinion about my method, and I would love to hear any feedback about it, but I really liked doing it that way because I don't have very good files and it seemed to be a bit better than what I had been trying before. Also, I use a little loop that I got off Amazon (my wife got for me for Christmas last year, actually) to see the marks better. That combination really worked well for me. If you try it that way, be sure to use the wet sand paper at least 600 grit. I didn't make it wet and I''m not sure if that would be a good idea. For some reason I don't think it would be too smart…

Thanks again for letting me piggy-back on your thread. Like I said, this was the first time I had successfully impressioned a key and I am still on a little high from it! The coolest part is that this is the only way I would have ever been able to get a key for this lock as it can't be taken apart. I had to do it blind as well since I bought it from an antique store with no key… It has a really thick shackle and I really like it. As far as Master locks go, it is one of my all time favorites!