master key fees?

[1mrchristopher]

I finished the job, and stuck to my listed original price, adding labor for the 3 panic bars. The pool manager felt the price was very good, and was pleased that I had blind coded the keys so that she and I knew what they were by the code, but it is unlikely that anyone else will. (Although ROT13) isn't exactly a difficult cipher.

[globallockytoo]

since when has or does "DND stop any key cutter from duplicating a non-restricted keyway?

Well Globallockytoo, of course marking keys "Do Not Duplicate," doesn't stop anyone from duplicating the key, inasmuch as that it does not carry with it any legal ramifications. That said, most high school students are unaware that they can run down to the hardware store with a key marked as such and have a gross of them cut, if they have the time and the money. Fortuitously city swimming pool lifeguards, and general employees are almost all high school students. Furthermore, I was specifically asked by the client for keys marked "Do Not Duplicate," even though one of the two clients cuts keys in his shop, and knows that it doesn't stop most people (he refuses to cut them), elsewise I likely wouldn't have bothered. The neuter bow is far more useful for limiting 5 and dime duplication, because 95% of the people cutting keys in those stores are reliant on the shape of the bow and/or the manufacturer code stamped on the bow.

I don't think that anyone implied at any point in this thread that having the key stamped as such was going to prevent duplication, although I note that Victorylocksmith, like my client, felt that they should be marked as such.

The whole point of restricted key systems is to prevent unauthorised duplication/origination of keys in your system. DND doesnt stop anything or anyone. 95% of key cutters look at the head shape? Really? neuter bow heads might help that issue, but i doubt it. Anyone who cuts keys knows to never look at the head shape.

[billdeserthills]

since when has or does "DND stop any key cutter from duplicating a non-restricted keyway?

Well Globallockytoo, of course marking keys "Do Not Duplicate," doesn't stop anyone from duplicating the key, inasmuch as that it does not carry with it any legal ramifications. That said, most high school students are unaware that they can run down to the hardware store with a key marked as such and have a gross of them cut, if they have the time and the money. Fortuitously city swimming pool lifeguards, and general employees are almost all high school students. Furthermore, I was specifically asked by the client for keys marked "Do Not Duplicate," even though one of the two clients cuts keys in his shop, and knows that it doesn't stop most people (he refuses to cut them), elsewise I likely wouldn't have bothered. The neuter bow is far more useful for limiting 5 and dime duplication, because 95% of the people cutting keys in those stores are reliant on the shape of the bow and/or the manufacturer code stamped on the bow.

I don't think that anyone implied at any point in this thread that having the key stamped as such was going to prevent duplication, although I note that Victorylocksmith, like my client, felt that they should be marked as such.

The whole point of restricted key systems is to prevent unauthorised duplication/origination of keys in your system. DND doesnt stop anything or anyone. 95% of key cutters look at the head shape? Really? neuter bow heads might help that issue, but i doubt it. Anyone who cuts keys knows to never look at the head shape.

Only the locksmith knows to look at the millings on a key, most people who cut keys at the hardware store know to only look at the head shape of a key. I like to use a restricted key and lock cyl on many community pools/tennis courts tho. I'm sure every distributor has one to sell.Years ago my Dad used to simply cut part of the bottom off the keys, so when they were duplicated at the hardware store they would wind up too low to turn in the lock. The hardware store figured that out by me, hence the restricted keyway.

[1mrchristopher]

I would have gladly upgraded them to a restricted keyway if the customer had been open to it, believe me when I tell you it was suggested. As they were not willing, this was the best option I had.

By the by, I got to cut 40 keys for a man camp just last week because the locksmith who rekeyed the cabins used neuter bow keys marked do not duplicate, and nobody in town would duplicate them. Two of the three places in town he went to, I know wouldn't have paid any attention to the DND incising if they had been able to identify the blank (SC1). As they could not, it was an easy out to say they couldn't do it because of it's marking. As to why the one place in town that has someone capable of identifying keys by their milling wouldn't cut them, I can only guess that the one keyway competent person they have wasn't working that day, or was on break.

While anyone who cuts keys SHOULD know to "never look at the head shape," the folks working a near minimum wage job at a hardware store, generally aren't invested in producing a well made key, or really any key at all. In my neck of the woods, all of the supposed customer service associates would seemingly prefer cleaning the bathroom to making keys. I'm sure there are exceptions, but my own personal experience having duplicates made at all 3 hardware stores in this town (prior to venturing into locksmithery) has been abysmal.

I'm not going to ever suggest to someone that a DND neuter bow on a common keyway is as good as using a restricted keyway, it isn't - not even close.

I do believe, however, that it does help to reduce proliferation of rogue keys. Will copies still happen? More likely than not. The employer has recourse though, as employees have been told that they are not allowed to have copies made, and any copies made will not bear my stamp or be on a neuter bow blank.

[Just_4_Fun]

ya know, there really has to come a time when the customer wants to half-ass their way though a job and you just say no-thanks.
If the city (town) won't go restricted, then you better be an amazing originator of master keys systems so ghost keys don't occur (impossible) or you'll wind up liable (like in another post) cause you got squeezed so hard you had to use (ugh) colored pins. Which can be a security plus if a criminal tries to cut to standard depths and it doesn't work cause thats not what your using.

But, I am not willing to buy into a $500/$1200 restricted system with minimium yearly required purchases for a one-time "we're so poor" cheap skate.
I see it all the time and I won't take part.

Locksmiths need back bones to say F U.

[billdeserthills]

You seem so hostile, I think I stand a better chance treating my client as friendly as possible
When I wrecked my van two years ago and I had to buy a new one, my clients all predicted
that my charges would go up, but they haven't. I just would a couple of extra jobs a month,
that pays for the new van costs. I haven't done more than a 30 master key system, but I had
no problems with ghost keys. I used my ILCO master key slider, best to skip on using any #1
master pins. In fact the thinnest master pin I use is a .030--any much thinner than that and you
risk having those wafers sliding between the shell & the plug and customers don't like that.

[cledry]

You can offer a compromise where the customer doesn't have to buy in to the system. For example we offer our Primus sidebar as an option or one of the supplier offered restricted blanks. Alternatively they can buy into their own restricted system.

Generally for MK jobs I like to use OEM pins, and nickle silver blanks. However we have a local government account that pays next to nothing for the masterkeying of Kwikset locks for local section 8 housing projects. They bring us 4 or 5 cases of deadbolts every month and we use them as filler in the shop when we aren't busy the new guy gets to learn a bit. These get Ilco brass blanks and coloured lab pins. I don't really think crooks are poking around in locks with a scope to check for coloured pins, then getting their handy reference out to determine what a purple pin in a Schlage lock is. Yes in theory it could happen, but in reality (been doing this over 30 years) I cannot recall a case.

As for ghost bittings or phantom keys, they exist in all normal pin tumbler master key systems, no matter the size. In small systems like those mentioned keeping 1 or more constant pins is a way to greatly reduce this.

[Just_4_Fun]

You seem so hostile, I think I stand a better chance treating my client as friendly as possible
When I wrecked my van two years ago and I had to buy a new one, my clients all predicted
that my charges would go up, but they haven't. I just would a couple of extra jobs a month,
that pays for the new van costs. I haven't done more than a 30 master key system, but I had
no problems with ghost keys. I used my ILCO master key slider, best to skip on using any #1
master pins. In fact the thinnest master pin I use is a .030--any much thinner than that and you
risk having those wafers sliding between the shell & the plug and customers don't like that.

I think your right that my tone comes across as hostile, perhaps I will dial it back a tad.
"I would just a couple of extra jobs a month". -?
They tell me when work is available, and I take everything I am given.
I can't book extra work that's not offered.

I half-mentioned a previous post where a locksmith was sued for using non-oem pins in a master key system and was found liable .
I am outraged the judgement went against him to that degree as that's horse-hockey.
Any locksmith who studies masterkeying is engrained on DAY-1, masterkeying is never about security, master keying is about convienence.
Security goes out the window with masterkeying, always.

I keep thinking I am on a locksmith board instead of a hobbiest board, and must adjust my myself accordingly.

[Squelchtone]

and locking this thread for moderator review.

Squelchtone