Abloy 8mm Boron Alloy shackle, how good is it?

[gg555]

I'm posting this question as a separate thread, because it kind of got lost in a separate thread I started that apparently came across as being about a broader topic than I intended.

I'm wondering how good the cut resistance of relatively small 8mm boron alloy shackles are, in particular on a high quality lock like the Abloy PL 330.

I saw a video on Youtube, where someone appeared to demonstrate that the Master 8mm boron alloy shackle is much harder than a similar 8mm boron alloy shackle made by Commando. He was able to cut the Commando shackle with 36" bolt cutters, but not the Master shackle. He claimed how one makes the alloy really makes a difference and they are not all equal.

Should I assume that the Abloy PL 330 8mm boron alloy shackle is even better than the Master (or worse)?

Thanks for any input on this question.

[Wizer]

[Squelchtone]

I honestly think you're really over focusing on shackle material strength when it comes to protecting a gym locker. It's an 8mm shackle, that's going to be weak spot number 1. It can and will be cut with long enough bolt cutters. Are we just not giving you the answer you *want* to hear? There is no scientific chart anywhere comparing cutting times for different brand and model padlocks. I already suggested in your original thread getting a shrouded padlock such as an American Lock so that a shackle cutting attack would be much harder. and make sure the padlock uses ball bearings at the heel and toe.

leave nice things at home if people are breaking into lockers there using bolt cutters, or find a nicer gym where that kind of crime isnt a thing.

Squelchtone

[gg555]

I honestly think you're really over focusing on shackle material strength when it comes to protecting a gym locker. It's an 8mm shackle, that's going to be weak spot number 1. It can and will be cut with long enough bolt cutters. Are we just not giving you the answer you *want* to hear? There is no scientific chart anywhere comparing cutting times for different brand and model padlocks. I already suggested in your original thread getting a shrouded padlock such as an American Lock so that a shackle cutting attack would be much harder. and make sure the padlock uses ball bearings at the heel and toe.

leave nice things at home if people are breaking into lockers there using bolt cutters, or find a nicer gym where that kind of crime isnt a thing.

Squelchtone

I'm just asking a question. If people don't have an answer that fine. I've taken all the other advice into consideration, I'm not ignoring it. In fact, as I said straight away in the OP of my other thread, I spent a lot of time researching threads in this forum before posting my questions. So all of the advice extraneous to the questions I'm asking, I had already seen many times over (from the same posters) and taken seriously. What is the point of repeating it over and over and beating me over the head with it, rather than addressing my actual questions? I got that advice. Seriously. I listened to it. I'm incorporating it into the way I'm addressing my security issues. I did not dismiss it. What else do I have to do, before people are willing to even consider my other (perhaps smaller) questions?

So it does get frustrating when I ask a question and people give me all kinds of advice accept to answer (if they can) the question at hand. It's not particular to this forum, but happens in many of them. People often seem to like to just give whatever advice, than answer someone's particular question. Indeed, rather than me not getting the answer I "want," as you suggest, it kind of feels like other people are reacting because I did not ask the question they want. Which is weird, why not just ignore it then?

And I responded to your suggestion about the American shrouded lock or the Abus disc lock, to which you said nothing in reply. I wondered if people thought those locks would attract undue attention, as Evan so vehemently argues in many threads in this forum is the main concern. It's hard for me to understand how an Abloy PL 330 is so fancy it will attract attention, even though it looks like a pertty regular lock, but a shrouded lock or disc lock, like the one's you suggest, are fine. I'm just trying to add that up, see what others think, and decide what I think. It seems to contradict Evan's argument that he is so passionate about.

So seriously, Squelchtone, I've listened to your advice. I appreciate it. Thank you.

But the question about 8mm boron alloy shackle strength is still relevant to me, for my purposes, which I don't feel like I should have to explain and justify, to just ask a technical question. It is relevant because: 1) It has already been demonstrated that they are not all equal. 2) I don't think the average thief is going into busy locker rooms with 36" or longer bolt cutters (at least not from what I understand has happened in the past at my gym). So defeating smaller bolt cutters has some deterent value. Is it the answer to everything? No. Is it potentially one amongst a series of relevant factors? Yes.

[gg555]

Thank you. That's a cool video to see. Unfortunately, that's a much larger shackle than the one I'm asking about, some I'm not sure what I can extrapolate (if anything) from it.

[GWiens2001]

It is not that we are not trying to answer your question. It is just that most of us can not afford to purchase ABLOY locks with the intention of cutting the shackle to find out how hard it is to cut.

The quality of the ABLOY lock is certainly much higher than the Master lock. The hexagonal shackle of the Master lock, on the other hand, is designed to distribute the force of the cutters over a larger surface area, making the bolt cutters less effective.

The shackle of the American 5260 I mentioned is not boron, but it is thicker than the shackle of a 5200, and is very hard to cut, even with a 40" set of bolt cutters. A thicker shackle is harder to cut.

As Squelchtone said, if you are truly worried about the lock being cut, get a protected shackle padlock. That will help improve the cut resistance of any lock.

As Evan said, this is a hobby picker site. There are a fair number of highly experienced locksmiths here as well. But most locksmiths do not study the metallurgy of the lock bodies and shackles. He was not being rude. He was simply telling you the truth.

ABLOY locks are not too common in the United States, aside from a few specific areas. They are found, but not in heavy numbers.

That said, consider that Wizer simply referred you to a YouTube video on the ABLOY locks. He is from Finland - the land where ABLOY comes from. He is a professional locksmith who works with ABLOY on a daily basis, yet does not know the specifics of the boron alloy used for their shackles. If he did not know the information you asked off the top of his head, it is unlikely that any locksmith will know the answer, let alone a hobbiest.

Good luck to you! Let us know what you choose to get, and if you are satisfied with what you got.

Keep in mind that you will find every hardware store will be able to copy the Master lock key if you need more. The opposite is true of ABLOY.

Gordon

[gg555]

GWiens2001,

Thanks for the explanation about the Master octagonal shackle. I didn't know that. See I did learn something from forum members about shackles.

I understand that people aren't deliberately avoiding my question about shackles. I just felt it got lost in the more general discussion about gym locker security, which had many very good points in it, that I took completely seriously, but I was still left with some more minor questions that I thought someone might know something about.

Again, I understand that pepole may not have the information I'm looking for. I get that, really. I may be new to this forum, but I'm hardly new to online forums. If people don't know about what I'm asking that's fine. I just wanted to focus attention on the point, so that it didn't get lost in the shuffle.

I do understand that thicker shackles are harder to cut and more of a deterent. So I get that the American locks you mentioned and the Abus disc lock Squelchtone mentioned are better.

But I was taking Evan's comment seriously that a obviously fancy, heavy duty, high security lock might attract undue attention and actually undermine the purpose it's supposed to serve. Evan, in other threads, seems to think even the Abloy PL 330, with an 8mm shackle and no shroud, would garner undue attention. I'm not sure I think that about that particular lock, but anyway, it contradicts what other people are suggesting.

So do you think in a locker room where everthing else is Master Lock 1500 locks or crappier and smaller, that the American 5260 or an American lock with a shroud or an Abus disc lock won't attract undue attention in the manner Evan warns about?

It was because of that concern that I ended up focusing on the Master Lock 2001 or the Abloy PL 330, that seem like they could pass for an every day lock, but offer some greater deterent benefits (though I totally get that they are not perfect). And that left me with the questions, what are the ways a Master Lock 2001 can be defeated other than cutting (since clearly a combination lock is more conveient--I don't have a good place to put a key while I'm swimming)? And assuming cutting is the only real world way the Abloy PL 330 is likely to be defeated is it better than the Master Lock 2001 in that respect?

I would also assume Abloy locks are better in all ways. But I thought someone might have more information about the shackle than just my assumption. Again, if no one does, I get that. It's okay.

I am also not sure that I can get a lock with a 10 or 11 mm shackle into the hasp on the lockers. I took a round body American lock I have, with an 11 mm shackle, to the gym just to try and there was no way that was going into the hasp. The hole itself looks much larger than 8 mm. But getting a bigger shackle at the right angle (the hasps are recessed into the locker door) to get it in there was not possible, at least with the American lock I tried.

So again, thanks to everyone for their thoughts. I'm just trying to work with the limitations of my situation and take into account the advice I have been given, which is not entirely consistent amongst different posters.

GG

[cheerIO]

Hi gg555,

I have read this and the other post and I think people are going a bit overboard. You want a good lock for a locker room.

Initially you were concerned about shimming and you have stated that it is unlikely that someone is going to go into the locker room with 40" bolt cutters.

Not that I am a thief, but I have always looked for vulnerabilities where ever I go. If I were to break into lockers the very first thing I would do would be to walk around and see what could be shimmed. You can cut a padlock, but you need big tools and it is akward. especially if you can't get purchase on the ground. You can pick a lock but it may take seconds or minutes and there is no guarantee, sometimes cheap locks are put together so badly they are a bear to pick. But if a lock can be shimmed, you can do it in seconds. I have shimmed locks and people right next to me thought I had a key somehow.

Yes, the old Master 1500 were super easy to shim, but the new ones have grooves in the locking pawl that make it very difficult. Impossible? I'm not sure, but I can't find a way around it.

Next choice for me of forced entry in a locker room would be to carry a strong pipe of some length in under my clothes. This could be inserted through a shackle and twisted. But then the lock doesn't matter. It would be attacking the hasp of the locker which is probably only 16 gauge steel. This would be quick and way better than carrying in bolt cutters.

Those two would be the best attacks in my opinion and what you should be concerned with. Anything else is too much trouble for the risk involved.

Because you have mentioned that you'd rather not take a key swimming I would go with the new 1500, or the 2100 if it has been upgraded with the anti shimming modifications. And if you were super concerned I would get one of those portable hotel door alarms and put it inside the door. If someone disturbs your stuff, a 100db alarm going off in the room will probably make them just turn and run rather than try to figure out what happened and how to disable it.

Hope my opinion is of some value.

[Wizer]

...attacking the hasp of the locker which is probably only 16 gauge steel.

I have been taught that the lock only needs to be stronger than the hasp its on. -It should not be the weakest link.

[gg555]

Hi cheerIO,

Thanks for your alternate take on things. That does sound reasonable.

After further analysis, I've determined that there's no way I'm going to get a lock with anything bigger than an 8mm shackle into the hasp at my gym, so that leaves out some of the more heavy duty lock suggestions people have made.

The Master Lock 20xx series locks have boron alloy shackles and double ball bearing locking, so in that respect they seem much better than the 1500 locks. Also, it is harder to decode the combination on the 20xx locks, which turns out to be pretty simple on the 1500 locks (although it would take a few minutes and presupposes a level of sophistication and patience on the part of locker room thieves that I would not assume).

The 20xx locks are also not really expensive, so I don't see a reason to choose a 1500 lock (is there?). I read in another thread here that the 20xx locks can't be shimmed, so I'm assuming that's true (and confirmed by the presence of a double ball bearing mechanism). If someone knows better, I'm interested. I have been asking if anyone knows of vulnerabilties to the 20xx other than cutting and decoding, but perhaps no one knows.

Since I now know that 8mm is the biggest I can go with the shackle, the other choice seems to be something like the Abloy PL 330 that I've been interested in. I'm willing to put up with the key, if it provides significant benefits over something like the Master 20xx, other than the benefit of the key itself. That is benefits in terms of shimming, cutting, and other vulnerabilities.

Another alternative would be something like the Abus 83CS/45, which has an 8mm shackle and a shroud, though it's even more expensive than the Abloy PL 330. Of course, the shroud poses the question of whether it would attract undue attention and I also wonder if this lock would be harder to cut than the Abloy lock. The shroud is just brass and the shackle is hardened steel, not boron alloy like the Abloy. It seems like whatever is gained from the shroud, may be lost by using softer materials. And I saw a video where someone had no more trouble cutting through the shroud, than the shackle, on a 8mm lock, albeit with 42" bolt cutters.

Anyway, those kind of seem like the best options for me at this point. I need an 8mm shackle, so what's the best option at that size? If anyone has any more thoughts on these particular locks and the questions I raised, I'd be grateful.

GG

[gg555]

...attacking the hasp of the locker which is probably only 16 gauge steel.

I have been taught that the lock only needs to be stronger than the hasp its on. -It should not be the weakest link.

Thanks for the thought, Wizer.

[GWiens2001]

The shroud on the protected shackle also adds bulk and diameter to the area to be cut. It means they need larger bolt cutters to reach around them. So even if the shroud is brass, it will add a fair bit to the difficulty in cutting the lock.

If you want to go keyless, the 20xx lock would be decent. If you don't mind the key, the Abloy is a great lock, and it can not be shimmed - it is dual locking ball as well. But, as stated before, it can be pretty difficult to replace a missing key. That may or may not be a concern to you.

The weakest link is no doubt going to be the lockers themselves.

Best of luck,

Gordon

[gg555]

Thanks for the explanation about the shroud Gordon. That makes sense.

So I guess the question is does the brass shroud make the Abus lock enough more difficult to cut that it's better than the Abloy (despite the only hardened steel shackle on the Abus). Or does the harder boron alloy shackle on the Abloy, without the shroud, making it roughly equivalent to the Abus lock (also requiring bigger bolt cutters to get through it)?

When you say the 20xx would be decent, what are the downsides you see to it? I'm still wondering if I've missed anything.

Thanks again.

GG

[cheerIO]

If that Master 2000 has a boron shackle and has ball bearings I would go with that.

Shackle that fits.
Shackle that is cut resistant to a degree.
Ball bearings: cannot be shimmed.
Better internals.
No key for carrying around.
Kind of looks like the other locks and won't raise too many eyebrows.

If a thief sees that lock and, as you said, most of the others around are 1500's, they are going to go for the easier prey.

As is said; If you and your friend are chased by a bear in the woods. You don't have to run faster than the bear. You only have to run faster than your friend.

[gg555]

Thanks cheerIO.

So it sounds like the only benefit of the Abloy is the key over the combination system (that technically can be decoded). And maybe the reality that Abloy locks are probably made better in general.

And then perhaps the Abus lock with the shroud adds a little more cut resistence, but that's not clear.

Yes, I agree with your logic about not being low hanging fruit for the thieves (while not doing something so over the top that it attracts attention).