uk locksmiths work available

[pinky]

i use martins pin and cam, in my opinion its the superior pick, its 100% effective and easier to use.
i have both and the problem with terrys pick for me is the winding up 2 heights per pin, you put in a No 1 pin and accidently wind it up then your picks stuck and pin needs snapping to get it out. though it works its not as quick or as effective, or maybe thats just for me, the staddon pick works but not as well i feel and for the same price.
the safeventures pick has great feel and excellent engineering, all 8 pin heights are used rather than winding up .

i have most of safeventures tools and a few from states, im just ordering nigel roses curtain pick and catalogue to view and trial these.

falles safe picks and mortice picks are to date the best ive tried both on the bench and on the job. my opinion only as some will have alot of success with the staddon pick, which in itself isnt a bad tool.

[acl]

never used Nigels 114 pin and cam,but havent had any probs with Terrys,i also have a few of Nigels and they all seem fairly good ,altough have had problems getting a decent reading with the the legge bs.Have just seen some of Mark Lambleys curtain picks with spacing clickers which look spot on

[pinky]

i use martins legge pin and cam, great kit, easier now ive cut and sized some reader keys for it, all legge down to 5 to 6 mins, though the values can throw you off sometimes, i plastacine impression first and work from there.

the mark francis curtain picks are fine for the price, but if you work by feel they are not so good, the picks are great its just that bendy wire, i prefer martins and rb locktools pick for feel, but marks is cheap and if you make your own wire you get more success with it, the only fault i have with it is the wire, otherwise a good pick, but well worth the price. the indicator will be good for the novice picker, but with a better wire you dont need the indicator once you can feel your way.

[acl]

Ive not been using the pin and cam kit its the other one but seem to be getting a crap reading with the plasticine.Any ideas?Ive also had trouble with some curtain picks re the wire being a little bendy and moving the lever lifters through the pack.Chris Belchers has been a bit of a pain but im sure if i asked him hed help as not only does he seem a VERY clever guy hes also Very helpful
Andy

[Chris B]

Good evening all,

Generally speaking it's right to say that the wire is bendy [the use of wire for me is a throw back to the time when I used wires for everything and in many instances this can be of assistance], if you haven't worked with these types of wires before it can be a little bit off-putting. It's design is for the light handed use which works very very effectively on any curtain lock, other than those without false notches, which require somewhat more pressure to open them, such as the Union 2201/2101 which require no skill lots of pressure and will open if you sneeze at it.

If one is a novice, there is no point in spending up to £140.00 or so on a curtain pick, it would be far better to be constructing basic picks alongside studying the locks and this gives one a far greater understanding. Buying the magic toys that are on the market tends to bypass the in-depth knowledge that one needs to be a good locksmith. I only takes about 10 - 15 minutes and some general tools/materials to manufacture an extremely effective curtain pick. The total cost of which is about £2.00. There are plenty of photos and other information available to enable a novice locksmith to get an idea of the basic design. That is if one does not have any design capabilities. And who knows? You may come up with a tool that works better than anything else on the market.

There were times when there were no commercially sold curtain picks, nor portable drills, but locksmiths still managed to open curtain locks non-destructively. [The use of even a fine drill invalidates the BS classification applied to a BS lock].

regards from Chris B

If a locksmith is having difficulty with working with a curtain pick, drop me an email, and I'll try to help you through it.

[Chris B]

As a foot note to my previous post.
I am rather tired to write more just now, but will come back tomorrow and refer to the reason why I for one like to have quality tools alongside my homemade tools.

Goodnight from Chris B

[captainsawdust]

Hi Chris

£2.00

come on £1.57

[acl]

Hi Chris dont get me wrong ,i was in no way slagging off your picks iwas just stating that he lever lifters were a little bendy and i had a bit of trouble moving them between levers.we have spoken about this through the safe engineers site and youve been most helpful.Wouldnt want you to think i was moaning about your tools !

[Chris B]

Good morning,

Not a problem, I didn't read your post like that at all, so no worries, no offence taken.

My only thought was to try to explain, rather late at night.... [I didn't realise what the time was], that working with a wire pick is a bit different than some of the other tools. That is why I decided to make them, especially to allow for a light handed approach. I really cannot answer much more than this regarding my own particular tools on here, because I am sure that I will be flamed to a crisp

But seriously, if anyone wants some advice, just drop me a line, don't sit at home perplexed because a simple email can get you on the road to handling your tool with success. I have had quite a few locksmiths email me, working through picking using other manufacturers tools, and slowly they are progressing well, I am familiar with most of the tools available on the market, and am unbiased enough to help.

I have to go now, job come in, catch you later....

regards from Chris

[pinky]

i will give chris his due , he will always help out, his emails are both factual and helpfull, and his picks do what he says, yes they lack feel on some locks which is made up by what they can do over other locks, you cant have full feel and get under the lowest lever.

his picks require gentle touch and if you are heavy handed they are not for you, in fact very few are.

email chris, you wont be dissappointed.

[Romstar]

Chris,

I'm certainly not going to flame you for talking about tools that you developed.

Quite simply, nobody else is better prepared to explain the thinking behind any given decision about the design or construction of a tool.

Does that mean that everyone will think you are RIGHT? Probably not, but the over all assumption here is that there are enough people who think you are right to make a difference.

Much of this is about personal technique, and feeling. Some people just don't have a light touch, some people do and most are in between.

Feel free to talk about why you think your picks are the better ones.

Romstar

[Chris B]

Thanks for your guidance Romstar,

Here is my reply...

The history behind my style of curtain picks:
Many years ago, when I was just a lad and became fascinated with locks, and how to open them, I started to develop my own style of picks. At this time I had never even heard of, or ever met a locksmith. So through the years, I progressed in the art of making my own tools. Some of which, when I eventually surfaced into the world of locksmithing, I found to have been already invented. “I was unaware that I had re-invented the wheel”.
So where did my style of curtain pick come from? This is a good question…. if my memory serves me correct, I was asked to open a curtain lock about 30 years ago, and not having access to a lathe or pillar drills etc., at that time, I made up a simple pick from a piece of wire and an old key blank. This pick has stood me well over the years, and I have been able to open most curtain locks that I have came across where the keyhole was compatible to my home-made tool. From the idea of this tool, I progressed to making curtain picks for all sorts of locks, all the way up to the Chubb Isolator. And in general they are fairly successful using just piano wire and key blanks.
Another reason why I have stayed with this system, is that if I come across any lock that I have not come across before, I can quite quickly make a pick on site to suit it [especially useful in the Safe & Vault world]
I have tried other tools and methods, but I still prefer my own simple system.
The advantages to the wire and key method which is the basis of the pocket curtain pick, are;
1] that as above it can be made on site quickly and economically
2] the wire is free to move horizontally left or right within the lock which enables the pick to move under low lift levers
3] the pocket curtain pick was a novel idea to produce a tool which was reversible without needing extra tools to adjust, and only has one wire to accommodate left and right handing.
The disadvantages to some:
The wire can be a bit disconcerting as it is flexible, but this can be useful when controlling the movement of the fence against false gates.

I must apologize that it is an expensive tool, but that is purely down to the process of wire erosion that is used to create the stem. My latest version of Stem, Collar & Wire, is to accommodate the new “E” series locks, where most of the levers sit very closely to the curtain, this tool also is not cheap, the reason for this is due to materials and manufacturing, which when you see the tool in your hand you may realize.

Saying all this, for the up and coming locksmiths, or those just plain interested in picking locks for sport, these tools should not be the first thing that you buy.
Now this you will find a strange statement coming from a man who is manufacturing tools. That is because I believe that the only way to become proficient in lock opening is start at the beginning and not try making short cuts.

Here are some of my views on how you should progress on mortise lock manipulation:
Attempt to make all your own Picks:
You will find this easier to do if you study your locks, and you may even come up with a new idea not seen before. This will also give you a better grounding in the lock picking principles. Buying an expensive pick is like buying your first car, if you buy an old ‘banger’ you will probably tinker with it and do running repairs on it constantly but you will also learn an awful lot by doing this, if your first experience in buying a car is to buy a Rolls Royce you will never get under the bonnet! If you don’t get under the bonnet, you will never be able to repair or even identify a fault. Once you have your skill in understanding what locks are all about, then enjoy the wonderful tools that are made, after all they have been designed by locksmiths for locksmiths.

Learn and Study your Levers:

Firstly, you need to gather together as many different types of mortise locks as you can.
Take them apart, and study the levers, make notes and even draw sketches of them, until you can identify any given lever from any of the given locks.
Especially look at the bellies of each lever because this can give you good indication of how high you will have to lift it, to engage the gate.
Look at the relationship of false gate positions either side of the true gate with relationship as to whether it is a high lift or low lift lever. This gives you valuable information on how to approach picking these locks.

Secondly, in the beginning of picking mortise locks it is useful to make a window into the lock case cover, just to see what's going on, and the golden rule is: ONLY MOVE THE LEVER THAT LEAST WANTS TO MOVE.
When this is stuck in your head, throw away the lock with the window in it because it tricks the mind into making you lift the easiest levers, and you will always wonder why everything keeps dropping in.
Working with a lock without a window will force you to obey the golden rule.

Courses:
Such as Safe Ventures and Martin Pink's, are good value for money, but I feel that it would be better to try to advance your knowledge and skills before you go. This will save you wasting time figuring out what they are trying to tell you and therefore the course will be of much more value. Also I would imagine that your teachers will feel as if they are teaching a ready mind rather than trying to 'stir treacle'. I go on to say, that when you pay this sort of money, you probably only do it once or twice, therefore to be able to take on board as much as possible, if you have done some ground work beforehand, you will no doubt benefit a 100 fold.

I think that this is enough for now for this open forum.

my best regards to all from Chris B

[toomush2drink]

What superb advice chris i especially think the bit about learning what you can first before attending a course is certainly true.

[pinky]

that would be a great world, no more trainees believing a harry potter tool existed, or the james bond picks that work in 10 seconds on all locks, it would save us giving free refresher courses allowing you to come back and resit the course free as many times as you like, so as to give you the depth of learning that you need, the courses would be far better for all.

sadly television portrays lock picking as a 2 second magic trick and this wont deter the dreamers who believe because james bond picks it in a second with a paperclip it must be easy, as if on telly it must be true.

it would benefit all greatly if all candidates properly research and practice a bit first, though with most wanting to spend a few hundred pounds and become an expert overnight, oh and dont forget the £2000 a week they expect to earn following a 2 day course, yes it would be an ideal world. the plus side is if you did a months research and practice up front, then you would probably be better than some who are out there training, mention no names.

this is a long haul requiring alot of dedicated study and practice, there are no worthwhile shortcuts, a course advances and accelerates learning, but cannot make you an expert nor competent, only you can do this.

good post chris

[pinky]

today i have contacted trading standards through my other line of work, and asked if the bla can charge a registration fee to belong to an unrecognised association , and yes they can as long as they dont claim to be industry recognised. you are joining their association which isnt recognised and if you want to pay for this its up to you, as long as no false claims are made.

they are however breaking all rules and legislation if they claim to be the only locksmith training school in the uk as i can name 7 of these, though from what i can gather this is only said vebaly by the salesman, so no proof exists.

even if your training only lasted 36 minutes on 1 day, they dont advertise full days training so again no rules broken there.

i know in one way im biased, but i do hate dishonesty in any way or form, so my advice is for now at least , steer clear, dont join the association, as 1 ) its not recognised within the industry, and 2 ) your only benefit is a listing on the net, though most people locked out dont have access to the net, i can see no benfit of this membership at this time.

maybe if they are still around in a couple of years then they may improve until then forget it, for the same money you can get proper training and join the MLA which will benefit you far more.