Master Keying Systems

[Evan]

It's definately good to know how to do the math on paper. But most lockshops just use software that generates huge systems automagically. Like HPC Master King. My boss could write a huge system by hand, but im a bit ashamed to admit, that i could not do it. I don't think i'll ever need to though. I think I know a bit more about keying up IC Cores, which are actually much more complicated then I know about keying up standard cylenders. But only because I was forced to learn, boss calls up with a weird request, he needs IC Cores Cross Keyed (somthing we typically would avoid) or needs the TMK to be "broken" but the control key to still work and change key. etc, weird situations like that will force you to figure it out when you need to.

I know the computer is awesome to generate master key systems because it also creates pinning charts and many other records like door listings you can give to the end user but you really need to know your stuff when it comes to reverse engineering something that you inherit without much in the way of records from the person who previously was servicing it...

Also when it comes to special keying conditions like selective key systems, cross keying or maison keying if you only know enough to follow the pinning chart print outs you could run into a lot of trouble if the entire keying system wasn't planned around some of the cross keying relationships...

~~ Evan

[SALocksmith]

Yeah, actually MasterKing automatically removes the cross keys. Well, they are still there and you can see them, but they are striked out with a red line. So you could still use them if you wanted to. Normally when I cross key it's on purpose, and it's normally when a customer has a specific set of needs, and does not want to pay to do it right, so your forced to do things like that. I don't like to do it but sometimes in the real world, you have to

[btshaw]

Hello all,

very useful forum. I am new here, not a locksmith, just a guy who ended up with too many keys... I had my office building master-keyed and would like to do so at home too. Just doing it myself as a hobby, I've rekeyed several locks, each one a learning lesson.

I've got a few properties now, I'd like each to have a MK, and I'd have the GMK. Only a few change keys per site, maybe 5 maximum, so not much expansion anticipated.

Regarding masterkeying, I've been following this thread and others and had a couple of theory questions for a 5 pin Schlage 3 Level Master scheme:

Evens or odds - is this just a convenient place to start? Is there a reason to choose one over the other?

To generate the MK's above, you progressed the third chamber - could you just as easily progress any chamber?

I have seen conflicting information going from the GMK to the MKs - some sites say that none of the bittings should be the same as the GMK and others say to minimze the number of bitting changes so as to minimize the number of masterpins (this site) - The latter makes sense to me.

Other than using software (I like playing with the math), to choose the GMK, would I:

choose even or odd.
follow the rules in post #2 from Evan.
are there any other rules to know?

best,
BT

[GordonAlexander]

I haven't read all the responses so forgive me if this has been brought up already.

A wouldn't suggest using ANY cut from the GMK in and sub or CK. Say 47562 is the master, choose something like 83744 for a sub. Then your CK's could progress the last three chambers(avoiding "562"). I think this method would be called a rotating constant. If you keep the "47562" and progress single chambers, your ck will look something like "47564, 47566, 47568...

This should be avoided. Change the first two chambers for each Sub and simply progress the last three, or four chambers. A change key should never have master bittings on it. If an observant crook noticed every key started with "47", he could simply make a master key from a change key with high cuts by impressioning or possibly doing the math. You can change the first two chambers and not have to worry about multiple master pins in each chamber.

Maybe this will help http://www.sopl.us/basic-masterkeying.html

[Evan]

A change key should never have master bittings on it.

Except within a properly designed Rotating Constant method master keying system...

~~ Evan

[Self-Taught 4731]

There are different methods of writing a master keys systems but a common one is called a progression: see the example below for an Idea of what it entails.




KBA=
GMK=47230


A xxxxx B xxxxxx C xxxcc Dxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
/\ xxxxx /\ xxxxxx /\ xxxx /\ xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sub Master 47430 xxx 47630 xxx 47830xxx 47030 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

47432xxx 47632xxx 47832xxx 47032xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
47434xxx 47634xxx 47834xxx 47034xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
47436xxx 47636xxx 47836xxx 47036xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
47438xxx 47638xxx 47838xxx 47038xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
47450xxx 47650xxx 47850xxx 47050xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
47452xxx 47652xxx 47852xxx 47052xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
47454xxx ect.xxxx ect.xxxx ect.xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

The lower group is the change keys under each submaster

I am new to all things locksmith. I have become interested in lock-picking though (I'm probably going to get a sparrows beginner kit, thinking about the Tuxedo) and my dad recently asked me to re-key his office building in a simple 3-tier system (he would have the GMK and the building is split up and rented out to multiple other companies so the heads of those companies would then be handed the masters for their portion of the office and then all locks would have their own change under a master). It's a simple system and doesn't need to be very secure (he made the point the doors are glass anyway the locks are simply for privacy) so I was thinking about doing a system similar to the example you've made (I've seen it used and explained in other places on this thread as a tpp however based on lockwiki's definition it was defined as a partial because some of the pins remain constant while only others change...is this correct?). I have no tools whatsoever so in order to accomplish this I would need:
a plug removal tool (optional)
pin tweezers (optional)
a plug follower
a case to house pins and work from
a list of pin sizes for brand locks based on cuts
a pin kit (I will be dealing with US lock, Schlage, Kwikset and others so I would need to make sure the pins were universal among)
Am I missing anything? Also how should I go about gaining these supplies? (Is their a company that someone would suggest that makes quality items in this regard? Is there a rekey kit that contains all of these tools?)

Any information you could give me regarding the process of rekeying to the specifications provided or gaining the proper tools would be HIGHLY appreciated! Also I apologize if this post is hard to follow, I am new to lp101 and not very familiar with its setup.

[Divinorum]

You would probably be better off starting your own new thread with this question. Anyway, with no locksmith experience whatsoever its not going to be easy to setup a 3 tier system like you described. Especially if you are doing it all by hand. I admire you for accepting the challenge, but make sure you don't bite off more than you can chew. You say that you don't have any picks so is it safe to assume you have never taken apart a lock or done any re keying? Master keying can be complex, I suggest you do a lot of reading first and then get hands on.

1.If I am thinking of the right tool, a plug removal tool is not absolutely necessary. You can push the retaining pin down with a small tension wrench (or anything else that fits) and unscrew the cap. Although the removal tool does make it less of a process.
2.I would say that tweezers are a must. Even experienced locksmiths have top pins fall out once in a blue moon and without tweezers they are a real pain to put back in.
3.For the locks you described (would not recommend Kwikset for commercial office space) a LAB .003 pin kit would suffice. The size depends on how many locks need pinning. You can always buy replacement pins.
4.I would definitely get some shims or picks. You are bound to mess up pinning a lock eventually and you will need a way to open it.
5. How are you going to cut all the keys necessary for your system? You will need blanks and a way to cut them.
6. For supplies, search the internet high and low. I got my pin kit on Amazon for much cheaper than any supplier. I also like clksupplies.com for other general locksmith tools. Thats just my preference.

[Self-Taught 4731]

You would probably be better off starting your own new thread with this question. Anyway, with no locksmith experience whatsoever its not going to be easy to setup a 3 tier system like you described. Especially if you are doing it all by hand. I admire you for accepting the challenge, but make sure you don't bite off more than you can chew. You say that you don't have any picks so is it safe to assume you have never taken apart a lock or done any re keying? Master keying can be complex, I suggest you do a lot of reading first and then get hands on.

1.If I am thinking of the right tool, a plug removal tool is not absolutely necessary. You can push the retaining pin down with a small tension wrench (or anything else that fits) and unscrew the cap. Although the removal tool does make it less of a process.
2.I would say that tweezers are a must. Even experienced locksmiths have top pins fall out once in a blue moon and without tweezers they are a real pain to put back in.
3.For the locks you described (would not recommend Kwikset for commercial office space) a LAB .003 pin kit would suffice. The size depends on how many locks need pinning. You can always buy replacement pins.
4.I would definitely get some shims or picks. You are bound to mess up pinning a lock eventually and you will need a way to open it.
5. How are you going to cut all the keys necessary for your system? You will need blanks and a way to cut them.
6. For supplies, search the internet high and low. I got my pin kit on Amazon for much cheaper than any supplier. I also like clksupplies.com for other general locksmith tools. Thats just my preference.

[Self-Taught 4731]

I typed up a reply too, I'm not sure why only the quote posted. I'll type it up again when I get home.

[cledry]

Just because the doors are glass doesn't mean that the locks are for privacy only. There are liabilities involved in the landlord tenant relationship, and also liabilities for the person doing the rekeying. Break ins involving no sign of forced entry could possibly come back to the landlord and who he used to rekey the locks. It is an unlikely scenario but not unheard of.

[Self-Taught 4731]

You would probably be better off starting your own new thread with this question. Anyway, with no locksmith experience whatsoever its not going to be easy to setup a 3 tier system like you described. Especially if you are doing it all by hand. I admire you for accepting the challenge, but make sure you don't bite off more than you can chew. You say that you don't have any picks so is it safe to assume you have never taken apart a lock or done any re keying? Master keying can be complex, I suggest you do a lot of reading first and then get hands on.

1.If I am thinking of the right tool, a plug removal tool is not absolutely necessary. You can push the retaining pin down with a small tension wrench (or anything else that fits) and unscrew the cap. Although the removal tool does make it less of a process.
2.I would say that tweezers are a must. Even experienced locksmiths have top pins fall out once in a blue moon and without tweezers they are a real pain to put back in.
3.For the locks you described (would not recommend Kwikset for commercial office space) a LAB .003 pin kit would suffice. The size depends on how many locks need pinning. You can always buy replacement pins.
4.I would definitely get some shims or picks. You are bound to mess up pinning a lock eventually and you will need a way to open it.
5. How are you going to cut all the keys necessary for your system? You will need blanks and a way to cut them.
6. For supplies, search the internet high and low. I got my pin kit on Amazon for much cheaper than any supplier. I also like clksupplies.com for other general locksmith tools. Thats just my preference.

I really appreciate your quick response and all your opinions. Please take no offense by any part of my response I am not questioning any part of your experience, I understand it far outweighs mine, I am simply trying to verify I understand your advice and I have covered all my bases. As far as biting off more than I can chew, I am not sure yet. My dad consulted his usual locksmith regarding this task and was not content with the price. Therefore, he agreed to allow me to try my hand at this in exchange for buying the necessary equipment for me to complete the task so that I might be able to gain the skills and equipment to potentially charge someone else for a similar task. I am planning on doing this overnight when no one is in the office, so if I try at it and fail, I will still have time and can just return the locks to the way they were, and offer to pay for my equipment, no harm done (they are single keyed with keys and there are only about 20 so it wouldn't be complicated to 'erase my damage' should it surpass my knowledge). I do have some experience in locks; I did have a set at one time that I used to successfully pick several padlocks that I have regularly (however it was a credit card style set and the tension tool in it was terrible so I gave it to a friend planning on upgrading to a real set), and before that, I successfully picked several locks with paper clips (the locks were incredibly simple, but it was a starting place), and most recently my dad brought home a lock to show me what kind of locks I would be working with that I successfully bypassed because I didn't have a key (I used a make-shift shim to get the last 3 pins but it wore out so I just picked the first couple with paper clips). I am not an expert by any means (that's why I'm here), however, I have a basic understanding of the inner components of a lock and how they work.

1. Yes sir, a plug removal tool is definitely not necessary. However, it is very useful and makes it a lot easier to deal with kwikset-type knob locks.
2. Tweezers definitely make life a lot easier when dealing with all pins. It is possible to get by without them if completely necessary, but I would definitely prefer have them.
3. All the locks are already installed. Why would you not suggest kwiksets for commercial office spaces, and would you suggest replacing the ones already installed? This is going to be a very low-security system (my dad made a good point that the doors are glass anyway, so this is mostly just for casual privacy), and only about 20 locks. So I wouldn't need very many pins or any security pins, but if they aren't too expensive, I'd like some security pins just to mess around with if for no other reason. I think I remember reading somewhere that LAB doesn't sell to anyone that's not a registered locksmith, is this correct?
4. You can get makeshift shims out of the security strip on a DVD case (they actually work pretty well), that I can use if necessary, but I have been wanting some more lock picks for a while though, so I'll definitely look into getting some. What do you know about Sparrows?
5. My dad has a key machine. I will go pick it up at some point today so that I can see if it will make a key from bitting. Pending it doesn't, how can I know if a certain key machine will work based on the type of information I would get online (http://www.clksupplies.com/shop/esp-339 ... 8f9a71b291). Also, do I need specially ordered key blanks, or will just normal door key blanks that I can get from Walmart work just fine?
6. I have looked briefly on Amazon and clksupplies.com, and found what appeared to be some great deals. How do I know if I've found a good deal or worn out crappy product? Also, how do I know if a particular item will work for what I need it for?

Thank you so much for the time you took to read my post and respond, and for all your great advice. Where/how should I create a new thread? I am incredibly new to lp101 and unfamiliar with how it works still. I tried to find this information using the search feature, and only after did I post this in the most relevant place I could find.

[Self-Taught 4731]

Break ins involving no sign of forced entry could possibly come back to the landlord and who he used to rekey the locks. It is an unlikely scenario but not unheard of.

My point with that was more to the effect of someone not worrying about the lock and just breaking the glass. Is my reasoning flawed in this regard? I was going to try and make the system as secure as possible, but my dad has been very vocal about not being worried about security in any ways past simple privacy, so I became less concerned about creating an intricate system.

[jeffmoss26]

The key machine you linked to will not even cut cylinder keys.
At the minimum you'd need a duplicating machine and a set of depth keys.

[cledry]

You mentioned you will be dealing with Kwikset, USA Lock, Schlage. I'm assuming they aren't all part of this same job or something will have to be changed.

Since you have only 20 changes you can use Kwikset but I would just use a 2 step system to avoid .025 pins They aren't very good locks though.

[Divinorum]

1. Yes sir, a plug removal tool is definitely not necessary. However, it is very useful and makes it a lot easier to deal with kwikset-type knob locks.
2. Tweezers definitely make life a lot easier when dealing with all pins. It is possible to get by without them if completely necessary, but I would definitely prefer have them.
3. All the locks are already installed. Why would you not suggest kwiksets for commercial office spaces, and would you suggest replacing the ones already installed? This is going to be a very low-security system (my dad made a good point that the doors are glass anyway, so this is mostly just for casual privacy), and only about 20 locks. So I wouldn't need very many pins or any security pins, but if they aren't too expensive, I'd like some security pins just to mess around with if for no other reason. I think I remember reading somewhere that LAB doesn't sell to anyone that's not a registered locksmith, is this correct?
4. You can get makeshift shims out of the security strip on a DVD case (they actually work pretty well), that I can use if necessary, but I have been wanting some more lock picks for a while though, so I'll definitely look into getting some. What do you know about Sparrows?
5. My dad has a key machine. I will go pick it up at some point today so that I can see if it will make a key from bitting. Pending it doesn't, how can I know if a certain key machine will work based on the type of information I would get online (http://www.clksupplies.com/shop/esp-339 ... 8f9a71b291). Also, do I need specially ordered key blanks, or will just normal door key blanks that I can get from Walmart work just fine?
6. I have looked briefly on Amazon and clksupplies.com, and found what appeared to be some great deals. How do I know if I've found a good deal or worn out crappy product? Also, how do I know if a particular item will work for what I need it for?

1. Okay you're talking about the Kwikset Cylinder Removal tool. That is not the tool I was thinking of but, yes get it if you have a bunch of locks to work on.

2. You should be able to find cheep tweezers online. If they are paying for your expenses buy them. However, yes it is possible without tweezers but really time consuming and a pain. If i had to choose I would choose tweezers over the Cylinder removal tool, that's just my 2 cents.

3.Kwikset is not recommended because it's not a commercial grade lock. The quality is just not there with Kwikset and usually it's not used in an office environment with heavy use for this reason among others. But if the locks are already installed I say work with what you have. LAB may not sell directly to you if you're not a locksmith but suppliers will sell pins no problem. It's the picks and bypass tools they are strict about (not sparrows ).

4. You are correct, you can collect your own shims and they do work. They are a bit more flimsy than locksmith shims but they will work in a pinch if you pin a cylinder incorrectly. I have ordered two sets from sparrows and I love them. I have also ordered other products from them and never had a problem. The only brand I would recommend over sparrows is Peterson. IMO they make better picks but their sets are really expensive. I purchased some individual Peterson picks that I added to my sparrows kit and I really like both.

5. If your dad has a key machine that works well that's a plus. Preferably it's a code machine. If not you can use space/depth keys to mimik a code machine though that is generally frowned upon when cutting for a master keys system. The machine you linked to is a duplicator machine. From what I can tell you need an attachment to cut cylindrical keys and the single review says "Some standard Keys Will not clamp down and align Properly in the in the provided Double bit and standard key adapters." Although the user did give it 5 stars. I have never used or seen that machine used so I really cant say to much about it.

6. The best thing you can do is always buy new. That way you're 100% sure you are receiving something not worn out and overused. I'm not too sure how to answer the last part of your question.

Good Luck!