eBay Safe Cutaways

[asgardschosen]

So I've been cruising eBay looking at their Safe Cutaway options. I remember reading elsewhere on this site that the Sargent and Greenleaf 6730 is the "Gold Standard" for learning manipulation. The cutaways I've been able to find aren't cheap (~100+ USD), however I've seen replacement locks selling for as little as $50. If I simply bought one of those $50 replacement locks and mounted it myself, would it still be a useful learning tool? With very limited tools, would I be able to turn that into a functional cutaway?

When I was learning to pick I used cutaway locks just to get an idea of how the lock worked, and I'd very much like to be able to do that with a safe. Knowing the guts of something and being able to watch them as I try to teach myself I think would be quite helpful.

If I bought one of the replacement locks, is there any way that I could still open it up to watch as the bits and pieces move (I don't have a milling machine or ANYTHING beyond the most basic of hand tools atm)? Alternatively if anyone is selling a safe lock cutaway, please PM me. I'm trying to avoid being specific on what it is inside the lock mechanism that I want to see (even though I think it's obvious which pieces I would want to be able to watch), since I'm not quite clear on where the line for the Advanced Forums is drawn.

[Squelchtone]

So I've been cruising eBay looking at their Safe Cutaway options. I remember reading elsewhere on this site that the Sargent and Greenleaf 6730 is the "Gold Standard" for learning manipulation. The cutaways I've been able to find aren't cheap (~100+ USD), however I've seen replacement locks selling for as little as $50. If I simply bought one of those $50 replacement locks and mounted it myself, would it still be a useful learning tool? With very limited tools, would I be able to turn that into a functional cutaway?

When I was learning to pick I used cutaway locks just to get an idea of how the lock worked, and I'd very much like to be able to do that with a safe. Knowing the guts of something and being able to watch them as I try to teach myself I think would be quite helpful.

If I bought one of the replacement locks, is there any way that I could still open it up to watch as the bits and pieces move (I don't have a milling machine or ANYTHING beyond the most basic of hand tools atm)? Alternatively if anyone is selling a safe lock cutaway, please PM me. I'm trying to avoid being specific on what it is inside the lock mechanism that I want to see (even though I think it's obvious which pieces I would want to be able to watch), since I'm not quite clear on where the line for the Advanced Forums is drawn.

All you'd need is a hacksaw and a file to make the the needed cuts. In fact, I think at least 1 seller on ebay is home brewing them based on the factory design. A metal band saw would be better than a hack saw, but you said you only have basic tools.

5 cuts are needed to make it look close to the factory cutaway which is a model 6730CUT and a bunch of filing or sanding to make it look nice. The plastic stands are easy to get if you're a locksmith, I may be offering some for sale if there is enough interest, or you can make a nice display using some lexan or wood.

If you buy a used or new one on ebay, make sure it includes the change key, it's a lot more fun to practice when you can change the combination yourself or have friends/family change it for you.

Squelchtone

[74TR6]

Ebay frequently has S/G for approx $35 to $40; have five or six on the shelf now and that is average I paid. Most will be the 6730, but watch the close up pictures for the label on lock. I have receive a couple of 6741's. Same basic lock. The 6730 has +/- .5 number tolerance and 6741 has +/-1.25 tolerance--think I remember that correctly. When you get your lock, remove the back cover and note the area of cover that presses down the internal relocker--easy to find. You can cut away a small section of the back cover as long as you retain this needed area and the two mounting screws. A dremel will work nicely as will a hacksaw. Need more view? Dremel will also remove a small slot in case above the area you want to watch. A change key will allow you to have the combination changed as needed

[asgardschosen]

Thank you both for the replies!

5 cuts are needed to make it look close to the factory cutaway which is a model 6730CUT and a bunch of filing or sanding to make it look nice. The plastic stands are easy to get if you're a locksmith, I may be offering some for sale if there is enough interest, or you can make a nice display using some lexan or wood.

I'm not quite sure where to get the plastic stands, and I'm not a locksmith - just a hobbyist. I could find something else that would work like wood as you suggested. If you happen to have one of those stands handy though, then please PM a price =).

The 6730 has +/- .5 number tolerance and 6741 has +/-1.25 tolerance--think I remember that correctly

Doesn't that mean that the 6741 will be easier to learn with because it's easier to feel when manipulating? Or does the higher tolerance give a wider range of possible numbers?

[74TR6]

As you are learning manipulation, you will be feeling for the same locations regardless of the lock. The difference in tolerance will have more effect on dialing a known combination. The effect on your recorded readings will be minimal. Some sellers on Ebay advertise the S/G lock and show a 6730; sometimes they ship a 6741. Same basic lock There are some good books to give you the basics; three I pulled from the shelf are: Lockmasters; Robert Gene Sieveking; and Neal Multop. Then it is all practice, practice, practice.

[asgardschosen]

So the books you recommend are: Robert Gene Sieveking's Guide to Manipulation, and what are the titles of the other 2? Lockmasters search only brought up their website with no books or anything that I could find, and Neal Multop search didn't bring up anything at all. For Lockmasters, did you mean their S&G 2740 Certification Course?

[74TR6]

The Neal Multop is: Safe Lock Manipulation, it is a 32+ page spiral bound book; copyright 1972-2001; could not find the ISBN; address show Daytona FL; try safe-manuals.com
Lockmaster book appears to be the workbook for a manipulation class; has 36 lessons and tests; Lockmasters School, Satellite Beach FL. I found both of these on Ebay when I was building a reference. If you can find one of the three, you will have a good start on the basics of design; what to be looking (feeling) for; and how to graph your findings.

Best of luck

[Squelchtone]

Don't forget Matt Blaze's Safecracking for the computer scientist paper: http://www.crypto.com/papers/safelocks.pdf

[asgardschosen]

The Neal Multop is: Safe Lock Manipulation, it is a 32+ page spiral bound book; copyright 1972-2001; could not find the ISBN; address show Daytona FL; try safe-manuals.com
Lockmaster book appears to be the workbook for a manipulation class; has 36 lessons and tests; Lockmasters School, Satellite Beach FL. I found both of these on Ebay when I was building a reference. If you can find one of the three, you will have a good start on the basics of design; what to be looking (feeling) for; and how to graph your findings.

Okay I see, thanks! I'll see if I can find a copy of both of them. Though it looks like safe-manuals.com isn't up anymore.

Don't forget Matt Blaze's Safecracking for the computer scientist paper: http://www.crypto.com/papers/safelocks.pdf

I've read (good things) about him before, I'll be sure to check this one out. Thanks again.

[asgardschosen]

Well gentlemen thank for the help! I've ordered a S&G 6730 from eBay for about $50! Now I get to sit here in anticipation like a kid waiting for his new toy haha.

I'll let you guys know if I ever get the thing open =)

[asgardschosen]

Oh, here's a picture of it!





=)

[Divinorum]

Nice lock and stand! I really need to get one of these and practice some manipulation. That's one thing I really haven't gotten into so far besides messing with master locks and other crummy combo locks.

[asgardschosen]

Found this one for $50 on eBay, and the guy was selling at least a couple more. Since most of them I found were asking $70-120 I decided to go for it. I'm going to turn it into a cutaway myself.

Any advice on a relatively inexpensive dremel (preferably $20-30 on amazon) that I can use both for cutting this safe lock and also for making my own picks? Or any models that I should be looking at, even if they cost more?

**EDIT**

Once I get the safe lock, I'll happily post some pics, methods, and results in case anyone else is interested in making their own cutaway.

[Squelchtone]

Nice lock and stand! I really need to get one of these and practice some manipulation. That's one thing I really haven't gotten into so far besides messing with master locks and other crummy combo locks.

The display stand is not included, that's the only gripe I have with that seller on ebay who actually sells a lot of nice well priced safe locks.

Squelchtone

[asgardschosen]

The display stand is not included,

Ooo I had missed that part. Well still a fine deal, I'll just need to find something to mount it on.