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New mailbox locks

Information about locks themselves. Questions, tips and lock diagram information should be posted here.

New mailbox locks

Postby nite0wl » 24 Nov 2014 19:24

I recently moved and noticed the rather distinctive look of my new mailbox lock, with a bit of research I discovered what it was and purchased a sample of both primary versions.
Image
CompX (which seems to have absorbed many older lock and mailbox manufacturers) produces locks for USPS approved "Cluster Box Unit" mailboxes meeting the USPS-L-1172C standard under the model numbers C9100 and C9200 (the model selection is based on the 'hand' of the box door). These locks are somewhat interesting. Despite their outward appearance when mounted they are pin-tumbler locks, not wafers, and contain 5 full pin stacks. Despite having five pins in each lock the company claims there are only 2000 differs per keyway which seems low even for such small components, this suggests that there has been some trimming of potentially problematic bittings though their criteria eludes me given the seemingly pick friendly bittings I have come across in my experience with them.

Servicability and assembly:
These locks are obviously not meant for servicing despite currently carrying a retail price between $12-$25USD. The plug is secured by a sixth pin, in line with the operating key stacks, this bin is a solid brass shaft that fits into a groove which runs roughly 90 degrees to each side of the plug pin chambers preventing the plug from being withdrawn or from rotating more than 90 degrees when unlocked. There is an additional restriction on the plug's ability to turn, just inside the lip of the plug there is a groove cut from the position of the pin stacks to 90 degrees either right or left along the inner face of the lip, this interfaces with a small protrusion on the mouth of the bore of the lock body to allow the lock to only open clockwise or counter-clockwise based on which plug is inserted. This difference is the difference between the C9100 (clockwise) and C9200 (counter-clockwise). Disassembly requires extensive cutting of the lock body to allow removal of the retaining pin. Unless someone has made a plug-follower specifically to fit the cam-lock style tail, reassembly is extremely difficult though it can be accomplished by using an appropriately sized standard follower and a shim long enough to cover the tailpiece and retaining groove while reinserting the plug.

Picking:
This design offers some interesting challenges to picking techniques to those accustomed to more common wafer and pin-tumbler designs. First and foremost is the spring-loaded dust-cover, this assembly is loosely crimped onto the face of the plug but is not secure enough to provide proper tension control of the plug. A long tipped traditional tension tool may be sufficient but in my attempts found they had a tendency to slip or be dislodged by the dust-cover, I achieved my best results using a Pry Bar type tool.
The complexity of the bitting is highly variable, from nearly flat to very radical low-high-low bittings. The simpler bittings fell to bogata style raking and jiggling tools in good time but more complex bittings resisted my raking attempts and required SPP with a very thin hook.
Despite what you may feel when working on one of these locks I have yet to find any security pins, just those damaged by over-enthusiastic tension.

Overall these are fairly good locks for a mailbox and I might consider them appropriate for other cam-lock installations and make a decent challenge for picking practice.
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Re: New mailbox locks

Postby Robotnik » 24 Nov 2014 21:37

Nice write up. I snagged a selection of three different types of these locks - the older National Cabinet Lock ones, the newer CompleX ones and the smaller, un-shuttered American Lock cam locks - off some decommissioned mailboxes a while back. Had fun picking them, for sure.

When it came to tensioning the box locks with the spring-loaded dust shutters, I would prop the shutter open with a standard tension wrench inserted at the bottom of the keyway, then tension the plug with a long tension wrench nested above it. Picked them with my SouthOrd slim short hook and slim half diamond.
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Re: New mailbox locks

Postby nite0wl » 25 Nov 2014 1:38

Robotnik wrote:When it came to tensioning the box locks with the spring-loaded dust shutters, I would prop the shutter open with a standard tension wrench inserted at the bottom of the keyway, then tension the plug with a long tension wrench nested above it. Picked them with my SouthOrd slim short hook and slim half diamond.


I had initially attempted to use a wishbone tensioner but found it unstable, another attempt at using a standard tensioner holding open the shutter and tensioning on the edge of the keyway worked better but left insufficient room to use lifters and still didn't provide as much control of plug rotation as I prefer. For unshuttered mailbox and cabinet locks I have a selection of very small tension tools including some of the thinnest from Peterson's Flat-5 set and some tools that were sold specifically as 'mailbox tensioners' which are basically slightly flattened wire but work fairly well as edge of keyway tensioners in especially tight keyways.
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Re: New mailbox locks

Postby McLinda » 25 Nov 2014 4:02

Thank you! I really enjoyed reading about these stupid locks that I hate to pieces... literally. I never practice on unmounted locks and these stupid things are installed horizontally.

Picking locks isn't the kind of talent my mother would ever boast on, but the one time she calls me to help her neighbor who was having a hard time getting a replacement key from the HOA, I get this beast! "My daughter can open it for you , no problem." she says! I used every wrench I have, I bent two picks backwards, and I had to pull out my dremel to make a new one.

I don't know how I got it, but it's not something I want to endure again. It wasn't the metal flap thing that frustrated me, it was the fact that I couldn't FEEL the pins doing anything and I make my own pics that weren't strong enough.

But thank you again for the info, you're awesome.
Am I the only one who slows down whenever passing the windshield wiper blades isle in Walmart? ;)
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Re: New mailbox locks

Postby daniel22747 » 25 Nov 2014 4:41

I have a couple of these new guys. For me the challenge is a very tight keyway.
There are no security pins.
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Re: New mailbox locks

Postby nite0wl » 25 Nov 2014 10:07

McLinda wrote:Thank you! I really enjoyed reading about these stupid locks that I hate to pieces... literally. I never practice on unmounted locks and these stupid things are installed horizontally.

Picking locks isn't the kind of talent my mother would ever boast on, but the one time she calls me to help her neighbor who was having a hard time getting a replacement key from the HOA, I get this beast! "My daughter can open it for you , no problem." she says! I used every wrench I have, I bent two picks backwards, and I had to pull out my dremel to make a new one.

I don't know how I got it, but it's not something I want to endure again. It wasn't the metal flap thing that frustrated me, it was the fact that I couldn't FEEL the pins doing anything and I make my own pics that weren't strong enough.

But thank you again for the info, you're awesome.


Since I don't have a mounting board (or a door that isn't actually busy being a door), I have a small table vise that I mount most of my locks in for practice. It isn't perfect but when I have been called to deal with an in-use lock the practice has helped.
I found several factors that play into the difficulty of getting feedback on the pins:
1. The tailpiece, cam, and retaining nut can cause significant resistance, combined with the restricted turning this complicates tensioning and can cause over-tensioning
2. If you have gotten accustomed to dealing with spool and other security pins you may experience false 'false-sets' where it will feel like the lock is binding on a shallow spool
3. The keyway is quite narrow and from what I can tell from dealing with keys for these, paracentric, wider picks will catch or be deflected by the warding and provide false resistance and apparent binding on pins that are either set or non-binding

Very thin (less than 0.020") highly polished picks together with a tension tool which gives more direct control of plug rotation (the Pry-Bar tool I used filled the width of the keyway) can help overcome these difficulties.

daniel22747 wrote:I have a couple of these new guys. For me the challenge is a very tight keyway.
There are no security pins.

That is correct, I dissected one of the locks in my collection where I thought I had detected spool-like behavior but all five pin stacks were just standard pins. Given the dimensions of the pins and the USPS torque-resistance requirements I don't think spool pins would be particularly feasible without changing the materials involved (admittedly I am not a metalurgist or a trained mechanical engineer so this is just my opinion and 'gut feeling').
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Re: New mailbox locks

Postby McLinda » 26 Nov 2014 19:07

nite0wl wrote:2. If you have gotten accustomed to dealing with spool and other security pins you may experience false 'false-sets' where it will feel like the lock is binding on a shallow spool



As far as I know, the only spools I have dealt with are in deadbolt locks. If I don't know exactly which pin is the spool, which I rarely if ever do, I treat the third pin in like it's the spool, lift it all the way up with no tension, apply a lot of tension and then force the others up. I know that's not what you're suppose to do but for some reason it works for me. The first spoolled lock I ever encountered had the third pin as the spool, so I guess I treat that like the rule, which I'm sure it's not.

nite0wl wrote:3. The keyway is quite narrow and from what I can tell from dealing with keys for these, paracentric, wider picks will catch or be deflected by the warding and provide false resistance and apparent binding on pins that are either set or non-binding


Do you have a guide on how to make such a wrench?


While we are on the subject of these locks, I thought I would mention the big one on the back for the postman (purely hypothetical as of course, none of us would EVER be silly enough to mess with that one.

You wrote about lever locks and I believe that is a lever, wafered lock. I read a comment in passing somewhere, that led me, after about an hour of Google image searches to this thing

Image

It is called a window regulator spring. It's for older cars, like old Chevys, with manual windows. I believe the bend in the center is suppose to fit like a key. Though, I wonder what tension, if any, would be used.
Am I the only one who slows down whenever passing the windshield wiper blades isle in Walmart? ;)
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Re: New mailbox locks

Postby Squelchtone » 26 Nov 2014 22:05


Hello New Members of the forum,

Just wanted to give you a heads up that although you may be excited about this new hobby and excited about the current lock you may be working on, this forum is not a free for all, and we discourage public discussion of practicing your picking on things like mailbox or PO BOX locks, vending machines, parking meters, coin-op washer and dryers, and any similar equipment for the sake of protecting the public trust in such locks. If may be fun to discuss with fellow hobbyists here, but it ends up posted for the world to see and not everyone visiting here is here for a fun new hobby.

While posting a photo of the new style postal lock is fine, going into great detail of which size tension wrench is "just perfect" for popping them open, is going further than this post should. If you want to talk shop on that level about locks that the public relies on for some semblance of privacy and security when it comes to their mail, please wait until you have member access in the Advanced areas where special topics can be discussed openly but not posted for the general public to read in the future.

Thanks for reading and PM me if you have any specific questions about the forum rules,
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Re: New mailbox locks

Postby Robotnik » 27 Nov 2014 4:47

Squelchtone wrote:
Hello New Members of the forum,

Just wanted to give you a heads up that although you may be excited about this new hobby and excited about the current lock you may be working on, this forum is not a free for all, and we discourage public discussion of practicing your picking on things like mailbox or PO BOX locks, vending machines, parking meters, coin-op washer and dryers, and any similar equipment for the sake of protecting the public trust in such locks. If may be fun to discuss with fellow hobbyists here, but it ends up posted for the world to see and not everyone visiting here is here for a fun new hobby.

While posting a photo of the new style postal lock is fine, going into great detail of which size tension wrench is "just perfect" for popping them open, is going further than this post should. If you want to talk shop on that level about locks that the public relies on for some semblance of privacy and security when it comes to their mail, please wait until you have member access in the Advanced areas where special topics can be discussed openly but not posted for the general public to read in the future.

Thanks for reading and PM me if you have any specific questions about the forum rules,
Squelchtone


Apologies, and noted. The edit feature on my post is no longer accessible, but feel free to strike the second paragraph of it :)
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Re: New mailbox locks

Postby McLinda » 27 Nov 2014 19:58

Robotnik wrote:Apologies, and noted. The edit feature on my post is no longer accessible, but feel free to strike the second paragraph of it :)


Not sure exactly which line was crossed but I can assure you that if anybody made a mess of y'alls place: it was me.

Sorry guys, I'll try to behave.... 8)
Am I the only one who slows down whenever passing the windshield wiper blades isle in Walmart? ;)
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Re: New mailbox locks

Postby Robotnik » 28 Nov 2014 20:32

McLinda wrote:
Robotnik wrote:Apologies, and noted. The edit feature on my post is no longer accessible, but feel free to strike the second paragraph of it :)


Not sure exactly which line was crossed but I can assure you that if anybody made a mess of y'alls place: it was me.

Sorry guys, I'll try to behave.... 8)


In reading the forum rules initially, I had interpreted "postal locks" as referring to the carrier service locks - USPS Arrow locks and Medeco MAL - rather than the end-user box locks. Attacks on individual boxes are sadly not an uncommon occurrence though, and I certainly agree with the prohibition on their open discussion.

In this case, we're discussing a lock that - while in and of itself is nothing mechanically special or high security - secures a lucrative, high-value target in the field.
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Re: New mailbox locks

Postby Nitrous » 28 Jan 2016 15:06

Hi Guys,

I might be treading on dangerous ground but I have a mailbox lock (here in Canada) that was working fine with our keys but now requires a lot of jiggling to get it to open.

On the inside of the lock, the numbers H0791 are present.
Also interesting is that the part of the cylinder that the locking hasp is press fitted onto has what appears to be a very thin keyway.

The front of the lock has the usual metal "guard".

I'd like to find the bitting for this type of lock. I suspect that the keys we have that "nearly work" are worn. I also imaging that the H0791 might be useful.

Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks
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Re: New mailbox locks

Postby Squelchtone » 28 Jan 2016 15:19

Nitrous wrote:Hi Guys,

I might be treading on dangerous ground but I have a mailbox lock (here in Canada) that was working fine with our keys but now requires a lot of jiggling to get it to open.

On the inside of the lock, the numbers H0791 are present.
Also interesting is that the part of the cylinder that the locking hasp is press fitted onto has what appears to be a very thin keyway.

The front of the lock has the usual metal "guard".

I'd like to find the bitting for this type of lock. I suspect that the keys we have that "nearly work" are worn. I also imaging that the H0791 might be useful.

Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks
Nitrous


since you're not new here, you'll know that more help will be offered if you show the outside AND inside photos of the lock including that H0791 number. But, here's the million dollar question, if someone here were to help you and give you the bitting from one of their code books or bitting software, would you be able to actually cut a new key? The reason I ask is because knowing that info isn't enough to make a new key unless you're nuts like me an own a key machine and have access to a selection of blanks.

It may be faster for your to ask the landlord or business owner to replace the cylinder, or if you or your company actually owns this mail box and lock, go online and find a replacement cylinder and keys from a place like Mr. Lock or ebay, and order enough keys for your needs.

btw, I googled for that H0791 number and I found a bitting (5 numbers ending in 2), but not sure if it's for your lock as manufacturers over the years no doubt reuse indirect key codes and I could see more than one company have Hxxxx series keys.

If someone wants to help you via PM, I have no problem with that, but I ask no direct mail box bitting/key cuts be posted here.
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Re: New mailbox locks

Postby Nitrous » 28 Jan 2016 15:26

Nitrous wrote:Hi Guys,

I might be treading on dangerous ground but I have a mailbox lock (here in Canada) that was working fine with our keys but now requires a lot of jiggling to get it to open.

On the inside of the lock, the numbers H0791 are present.
Also interesting is that the part of the cylinder that the locking hasp is press fitted onto has what appears to be a very thin keyway.

The front of the lock has the usual metal "guard".

I'd like to find the bitting for this type of lock. I suspect that the keys we have that "nearly work" are worn. I also imaging that the H0791 might be useful.

Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks
Nitrous


Fair enough, Squelchtone.
Sadly, I have a key cutting machine (two actually, a Curtis 2000 and more recently I picked up a Foley Belsaw). I also have a pak-a-punch. While I don't have blanks for this particular key, I'm happy to snag one for retail prices at the local hardware store.

I did a search on google for the H0791 but did not find any bitting information.
I was planning on doing some measurements of my existing key.

As far as the pictures go, I didn't want to go too far down the rabbit hole with this request.
I know that the issue is somewhat sensitive. (I didn't realize it extended to bitting information, thought it was more about picking/compromising the lock - I don't want to do either)

Thanks again,
Doug
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Re: New mailbox locks

Postby Nitrous » 28 Jan 2016 21:22

Ok guys,

Just to complete my part of this thread - Squelchtone (who is obviously a better googler than I am) provided me with the Hudson biting information and the particulars for my lock in a PM.

I went to the local hardware store (Homehardware to be precise) and purchased a couple Ilco 1003M blanks. $.99 each. I cut the blank to code and with a little filing, it opened the lock easily.

Just for the record, the keys we had (which were the umpteenth copy of copies) were miles out of spec.
Its amazing that they worked at all.

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