Does this sound like B.S. to anyone else?

[somenewguy]

After my debacle with bumpkeys.us I found another supplier and placed an order. Here's the unadulterated email thread between us which I started after placing the order.

ME

Hello!
Per my note - did you provide the Best keys in the specified keyways?

Also, as the BEST SFIC keys are tip-stopped, what kind of bump keys do you provide? The kind where you pull them out one stop and then bump, or the kind where you cut back the stop and then bump with a rubber O-Ring on the bow?

Thank you

THEM

We shipped the keys you ordered...the sku are different for the different keyways, so you have 3 different be2 keyways. We suggest not using rings...directions are on the website for use:

A brief instructional guide (see our video for further assistance, click on video tab to view):

1) Insert key (if key does not fit, it is the wrong key for that lock).

2) Pull key out 1 notch.

3) While holding tension, drive the key into the lock with a bump hammer (preferred tool) or something lightweight like the back of a screwdriver.

4) If lock does not open, repeat steps 2 and 3 (this may take several attempts when you are first learning).

Strike one, this is kind of a bitchy response, because all I wanted to do was check and see if they were really sending me the different keyways I ordered since their website incorrectly calls them all BE2 (though it lets you select the actual keyway, which I did). That 4-step list of instructions is all over their site and I had already seen it so that didn't help me much, plus I already know this info and that's not what I am really asking. Since I asked a specific question about which type of bump key this is and how they handle the fact that Best keys are tip-stopped, and she didn't address either of these issues but instead chose to cut and paste the same simple instructions that are on their site, makes me think this person handling the emails has no idea about the product. I deleted the contact info from the emails, but just so you know, the email address is a female name. It's certainly possible that this is a female locksmith but I suspect it's wife of the person who actually cuts the keys (call me sexist but I am basing this just on what she seems to know about the product) but it doesn't seem like she knows what she's talking about.

ME

Hello!
But Best SFIC keys are tip-stopped, not bow-stopped, I wanted to know if you modify the tip to prevent damage to the lock?

Also, did this package ship out? The shipping number still shows the same status ("Shipping Label Created") since Wednesday which generally indicates it has not been dropped off with the Post Office yet.

THEM

We do not do modifications...what you see in the picture is what is sent...the keys are cut for minimal bumping so if used properly, will not damage the lock.
Shipping was generated on the 19th which means it was dropped at the post office on the 20th...first class mail is bulk scanned and tracking is not always up to date...if you don't receive them by December 1st we will file a case and get a tracker put on the package.

OK so I'm sending fairly friendly emails and getting somewhat cranky-sounding responses, I am not asking for 'modifications' I am asking if they knew enough to prepare a bump key correctly for a tip-stopped keyway.
Oh, by the way, she's lying about when they dropped it off. My card was charged on the 20th, but the tracking info clearly shows that the post office generated the tracking number on the 20th.... but the package wasn't physically dropped off at the post office until the 24th, which means the seller sat on it for three days and then went to the post office, but whatever, it's almost Thanksgiving and I'm sure they have other things going on.

Ok I finally get the package and look at the keys on 12/2. I didn't even open the bag, just looking through the clear plastic. Many of the keys are nickel-silver instead of brass, which is good (I requested that on the comments section of the order form and it seems they either accommodated my request or that's just the blanks they had on hand ; either way, I'm happy). Looking at the keys they look like they were rushed a bit through the cutter and are not deburred, but I can do that myself. However, looking at the Best keys, I see something that doesn't make sense to me. Here's the email I sent:

ME

Hello!
Are you the person who cut the keys? If not, can you let them know I have this question about the Best SFIC keys; I can see through the bag (haven't even opened it yet) that the 2 cuts closest to the bow of the key are cut slightly higher (5 thousandths maybe?) than the next 5 cuts. All 3 of the Best keys show this. As far as I know, at least in the A2 system, all of the cuts should be the same depth, shouldn't they?

Here are the accompanying pictures I sent (click on them to view fullsize): http://imgur.com/ZLGSa5E,ydY8gKb,d3bisfO,t1hBBom,GS5BQ0X,hQ7vRHL

THEM

This is the correct cut...the masters were cut by a licensed and experienced locksmith.

ME

Hi!
Thanks [name], but why are the first two positions higher than the other 5 pin positions?

THEM

It's a minimal bump technique...meant for less damage to the lock.

Ok - is this B.S. or what?

[MacGyver101]

I would also call BS on that: "minimal bumping" has to do with the placement of the cuts. (You'd move them slightly closer to the tip.) Depth of cut wouldn't change.

[Squelchtone]

I gotta tell you in reading the emails you posted, nothing sounds bitchy or grumpy in their replies, maybe you're just being a little sensitive and expecting to receive bad service now, because you had bad service from the last vendor. It's almost like you're looking for something to go wrong. Their replies seem polite and patient to me.

What if instead of going out and finding these random vendors, you ask us here, and we can maybe point you to a place that is reputable and makes known good bump keys? Or if nobody out there makes keys good enough to meet your expectations, then have a go at making your own to your specifications.

As for their explanation about the first couple cuts by the shoulder, I don't know why they did that, it doesn't seem correct, but I guarantee you their in house locksmith probably thinks they are being made the "right" way.

I have to ask, is this for hobby bumping or are you a working locksmith that does a lot of BEST lockout calls?

good luck,
Squelchtone

[somenewguy]

MacGyver; Thanks for the input; I am thinking along the same lines.

Squelchtone: You're right, I'm a little sore over the prior transaction. So, just consider the above post as me 'venting' to the board. As you can see (I didn't change or delete anything in the emails except a name) I've been very cordial in my emails to them as well; I haven't accused them of anything. In fact, I'm trying hard to keep an open mind about this - I'm still not sure if these keys were cut wrong or not but I am leaning towards it. At the very best, whoever cut them believes they have some 'secret sauce' for making bump keys and If so, I'd like to hear more about it. At worst, they just screwed up the keys. I did try to solicit input (in my other thread) for good suppliers of bump keys (I specifically need Best keyways though, which knocks out many of the suppliers I found online) but didn't get any good leads.

As I understand it, there are two broad types of bumping keys: The "pull-back" and "minimal bumping" type.

Pull-back (also called pull-out but I can't refer to the "pull-out method" without snickering) I believe uses an unmodified key cut to all the lowest depths. The instructions for use are exactly the 4 steps she provided in email and which are on their website. You pull the key back one position and then drive it into the lock, while applying tension at the right time.

Minimal bumping, if I understand it correctly, relies on shaving off a little bit of the surface where the key 'stops' on the lock normally (tip, bow, both?). The key can then go a little further into the lock so it is not required to pull the key one pin position back before bumping, you just bump and then let the pins push the key back out slightly and try again. As MacGyver said, the only difference I could see on a 'minimal bumping' key would be to perhaps move the cuts slightly so the pins are resting on the forward 'ramps' of the cuts instead of in the root of the cuts.

I don't see how a higher depth cut on the first two locations would help, or even work - unless it somehow offsets the slight tendency for the key to 'rock' in the keyway, but I have never heard of this method of bumpkey preparation before.

The general tone of the emails (and I'm trying to remove my personal bias as Squelchtone pointed out) plus the fact that she provided instructions for the pull-back method while claiming the keys are made for the 'minimal bumping' method means I really don't think she knows what she's talking about. Perhaps the person cutting the keys is fully aware of the terminology and the differences in bump keys, but this information is not getting through to the person who handles the emails.

I'll measure the keys with a micrometer and see what the difference in cut depths really is.

What do you think of the following response: "Hi xxxx; The minimal bump keys are supposed be used without pulling them out one stop (step #2 in the instructions you sent). So, are these minimal bump keys or are they pull-back style keys? Also, as far as I know, the cut depths at each position should be the same regardless of which type of bump key it is. Can you please let me know what the locksmith says about this as I am concerned that these keys were cut incorrectly. On the other hand, perhaps this is some new method that I am unaware of, but I need to know more about it because neither I nor anyone else I have asked has heard of a bump key with different cut depths in differrent pin positions."

[averagejoe]

With good quality blanks a 9 cut will have 0.2050" of key between the bottom of the key and the cut. An 8 cut is 0.2175".

[cledry]

I would not recommend bumping Best SFIC locks. The tip of the key usually damages the retainer. Picking them is usually quite easy so the bumping shouldn't be needed.

[cledry]

Also I can tell by looking at the photo that they are not code cutting their bump keys, this is a duplicate. I would find a different vendor.