2 questions about security pins: opening technique and pins

[pillar]

On bosnianbills youtube channel he showed a technique to quickly open a lock, which is only possible if there are only normal pins in the lock, but no security pins.
I cannot find this video again, do you know which technique was meant?


Additional questions:
When referring to "security pins" which pins are meant? Are all non-standard pins automatically security pins (spool, cerrated, mushroom, T, etc.)?
Are the standard pins only there for keeping a lock from flopping around?

[Divinorum]

Is this it? I believe the technique you are referring to is raking. Raking has a much higher success rate if no security pins are present.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fI7Lx-73lU0

For the most part, yes anything that's not a standard pin is a security pin. Spools, mushrooms, and serrated pins are all considered security pins. I'm not sure what you mean by "keeping the lock from flopping around". Standard pins serve the same purpose as security pins, they keep the lock locked until the correct key is inserted. Some locks will mix in 1 standard pin into the lock with all the rest being spool pins. They do this to prevent the lock from getting hung up when inserting and turning the key. The 1 standard pin will keep everything aligned.

[pillar]

Thanks

I do not know if I am mixing videos up here (probably) but I think it was a technique, where all pins are pressed deeply into the shaft, tension wrench is inserted with high tension, pick is removed and tension is released slowly with a vibrating effect. The pins then glide to the shear line and the lock is open.


With flopping I mean that the locked lock is only moving at low angle due to the standard pin. With all pins spools it would move at higher angles.

[FancyPants]

That technique is overlifting .https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-xasbX42u9I

[Forestfire1776]

Really cool technique, I have had very limited success with it, but knowing it is value added and another tool in the proverbial toolbox.

[FancyPants]

I've never had any success with it at all, but I suppose I don't really see many wafers.

[Forestfire1776]

I've never had any success with it at all, but I suppose I don't really see many wafers.

Must have missed something, I was referring to pin tumblers.

[FancyPants]

I've never had any success with it at all, but I suppose I don't really see many wafers.

Must have missed something, I was referring to pin tumblers.

My bad, I had it in my head it was a technique usually employed with wafers for some reason. I suppose there's realistically little difference between wafers and pin tumblers without any security pins.

[Squelchtone]

hmmm, I'm not sure if this qualifies as overlifting, or as Picking In Reverse. At least that's what I call it when I pick an American Lock padlock with all serrated pins, I lift all the pins as high as they go, apply heavy tension to hold them in place, then let them down slowly by lowering the amount of tension and feel around with a pick to see what's going on. The idea is to deny the serrated pins their designed purpose.

Could this be what is in the BosnianBill video you seek or was it yet another technique?

Thanks,
Squelchtone

[Forestfire1776]

If my memory serves correct the video was all standard pins that was over lifted and one by one was brought to the sheer line by the spring tension and releasing tension on the tension wrench. I don't think he used a pick at all. Squelch, I have tried reverse picking on the americans but I only had success on fresh new ones with snappy, strong springs, but I have seen yall uber talented individuals be able to do it like every time.

[FancyPants]

I'm going to go a bit off topic with this, but don't Americans have serrated key pins? Would the technique not be stopped with this?

[Fredo the Crow]

@FancyPants : I don't think this is really off-topic. Throughout his videos Bill keep saying security key-pins are rather useless (which is open to debate...), but I think this is precisely what they are good for. The serrations would indeed make the task more complicated.

I must add that with our euro profiles that are mounted upside-down (or is it rather you Americans that have your locks reversed? ) the gravity is playing against us with this picking technique. With US-style mounting it is sometimes possible to just unblock the key pin by poking it a little, and it can eventually fall down without affecting the rest of the stack. With euro-style mounting you really need to have the spring push the full stack up to free the key pin, as poking it won't make it rise magically.

[cj101]

Throughout his videos Bill keep saying security key-pins are rather useless (which is open to debate...), but I think this is precisely what they are good for.

In some ways, I can understand this. If you have to much security pins (especially spool pins), it is pretty easy by raking, to get the core to rotate some degrees (in germany, we call this 'Kippstellung'). In this position, it is my experience, it is much easier to get pins to the shear line as you cannot overset pins easily.
Especially, the locks with one normal and 4 spool pins, I find rather easy to open.
However, you cannot rake open locks with security pins easily and I think improvised picks, like hair or paper clips should no longer work.

I'm going to go a bit off topic with this, but don't Americans have serrated key pins? Would the technique not be stopped with this?

Yes, I think this will stop the technique from working. I don't have an American lock, but an ABUS with serrated key pins. You should not overset these pins, as otherwise you would have to reduce tension until the pin gets uncaught by the housing. But then you will loose the advantage of the overlift technique.

[Fredo the Crow]

Note that I said he mentioned security *key* pins in particular. I don't think security driver pins in general are useless.

As you said "all spools" can yield a very predictable lock sometimes, but there are definitely some nastier pins around, and combinations too...

[cj101]

Note that I said he mentioned security *key* pins in particular.

Unfortunately, I missed this tiny detail. I am not very used to the english lock related words yet.

I found, that low quality locks can live very good with only normal pins or just one or two secruity pins. I have a Kale lock with only normal pins (but beveled). This is quite diffcult to pick, as you can overlift the pins rather easily. On the other hand, my Abus Buffo, a lower quality knockoff of the C83 (it has 4 spool driver) opens very easily.
Just after raking for 1 to 3 seconds, the core already turns some degrees. The spools can be set to the correct position with an 'exagerrated' spool pin behaviour. Actually, it is this lock, where I learned how to handle spool pins.
When filled with only normal pins, however, picking is harder for me.

I also have several Zeiss Ikon (one is a easily repinnable training lock as well), which are produced to very tight tolerances. Typically, these locks come with just two spool pins and one single serrated driver pin (only one notch, aprox 0.75mm above its shearline edge) These locks are for me pretty hard to pick open. If you set the spool, most times you loose some other already set pins.

If I insert 4 spools however, it becomes quite easy as well.