kwikset master key rules

by **wzd** » 29 Oct 2004 20:54

Two items for you locksmiths. First, my locksmith for a 20 unit apt. building no longer has time to deal with small stuff - like rekeying a unit with a new change key on a master system. And he says he will send me the master key sheet he works from but never has. Do I have any recourse? This sounds like lawsuit material if I was so inclined (but I hate that stuff....).

Second, I am going to measure the keys for current units and then use new keys in a master key scheme I will generate. From the keys I have and from talking with him in the past, I know he avoids #1 pins (get stuck, cause lock problems). I think he sets MACS to 3 instead of 4. Any pins equal to the master are not used (which I believe avoids unintentional cross keying). Anyway I put a simple script together to generate a list of possibilities for keys, and am looking for suggestions on other rules to add. The script is at http://home.earthlink.net/~wzd3/masterkey.htm if you want to look/try it. It is just tested with netscape so far.

I know there are programs available, but they seem to be part of large software packages. The system is for kwikset (lousy locks, I know, but I am not going to change out 40 locks). In any case, if anyone thinks the script is of any interest to others, I may clean it up and keep it available. It's already served its purpose for me - learn some JavaScript and generate a change key table for my master key.

wzd

by **Chucklz** » 29 Oct 2004 21:28

Some issues. First Do you own the apartment complex? I would certainly hope so if you plan to rekey the locks and retain the bittings. You should also note that your script does not properly account for the depths used in Kwikset systems. O, and 7 are valid depths. Keys with 'decending" cuts such as 23456 and 11135 should also be discarded. I have also seen the 8 depth used in a MK system. A good masterkey should have at least one depth higher than all of the change keys in a particular position, and I like having one cut deeper, but Im pretty insane. Your script looks like it could be pretty good, but here are some other things you may want to consider adding.

1.) You have it limited to 5 pin locks, you may want 6 pin locks in the future.
2.) You have it limited to some of the Kwikset depths. Why not let the user decide the depth range, so that your script is even more useful

by **oldlock** » 29 Oct 2004 21:41

Forgot the lawsuit, the intellectual property (ie the system design) does not belong to you, unless the locksmith chooses to sell / give it to you.

As for the design, if you are not expereinced in Master keying you can get yourself into a whole lot of trouble, one apartments keys fitting another due to a mistake on your part, resulting in a burglary etc would be grounds for a lawsuit !

Paul

by **skold** » 29 Oct 2004 22:53

go to google and write key mastery, download it then do the tutorials

by **wzd** » 30 Oct 2004 0:56

Yes, I own the apartment building. And it sounds like the consensus is that I am stuck if the locksmith doesn't want to continue to work on the building! That really sucks. I would think that installing a master system would include an obligation to maintain it.

re: Kwikset levels: I've seen/heard of 7 cuts, but not 0! the 1 is so close to the top of the key blank, I can't see that. The 1 cut is .329, the normal pin depth is .023, and the blank is only .340. I guess you could put a .161 bottom pin in, but that is not a standard Kwikset pinning and is only .11 from the #1 cut. I don't know why, but none of the keys have a #7 cut. Maybe the locksmith felt that the keys break too easily? I don't know.

re: keeping at least one level of each change key below the master. Yes, I agree that is a good system. In fact Key Mastery, mentioned below has that option in it's manual. However it is not true for the system I was working with. (and it was not true for the system at my high school 30+ years ago. Me and friends got grand masters by filing a key we were authorized to have. We also made picks, and played around with lockpicking...it was fun)

re: phantom keys: I agree. However the fact that the old locksmith left some keys on a previous master, and only re-keyed as units turned over, is more of a worry in this regard. I think that if you set up a single level master, and follow the rule that no change keys have cuts that match the master, then you can not have a phantom. You do limit the number of keys in the system, but so what for a small system.

re: keys with decending cuts: Why should these be discarded?

re: closest key is 2 depths from another. I checking my keys, I notice that all the keys are 2 pin depths away from any other key. Is there a good reason for this, or just something his system did?

wzd

by **wzd** » 30 Oct 2004 0:58

What tutorial are you referring to? I see the manuals to use the system, but the system is $990! I haven't seen any freeware or low cost systems for the small guy!

wzd

by **skold** » 30 Oct 2004 1:14

the free download is here
http://www.secsoft.com/KeyMastery/km_download.htm

tutorials can be found by searching all over google

by **wzd** » 30 Oct 2004 10:51

Ok, I'll look at key mastery some more. I skipped it when I saw it had a registration step for the demo version. And I have seen tutorials on the web - I thought your message meant there were some on the key mastery page. In a manner of speaking, the key mastery manual is a better tutorial than many of the other articles I read.

WZD

by **Varjeal** » 30 Oct 2004 13:04

A few things..

1. If your "locksmith" no longer has time to "deal" with "small"stuff, dump 'em.

2. Go back into your original records and look at the original invoice(s) for a statement such masterkey sytem $XXX. If you see such or something similar, that piece of of paper he holds is legally yours since you have purchased the system.
You have the legal right (check with a lawyer first of course) to request ALL copies of that system to be in your hands.

3. If he takes an extensively long time to produce that system and/or grumbles as he returns it, I'd seriously suggest writing up a brand new system and master-key and phasing out the old system. (The ideal of course being changing the entire system at once. Perhaps consider changing the locks to a different keyway altogether.)

4. Do NOT use the old keys in generating a new system. Choose a brand new TMK (top master key) and start from there.

5. If you have a high turnover rate in your 20 unit complex, you're going to want a lot of change keys available. Try to keep it simple with basically a single level system of masterkey+change keys only.

6. When setting it up, go ahead and use the Macs of 4...no reason why not. As long as you plan your chart carefully you won't have to worry about the other nonsense.

Regarding rules for your script, all the usual apply.

a. Beware of MACS (ie Macs of 4 and having key codes 61616)
b. Avoid all similar cuts (55555)
c. Avoid descending cuts (54321) (with wear, this can allow key to be pulled out in bad positions)
d. Have at least 2 positions different. (ie. 55554 is bad, while 53554 is acceptable.)
e. Make sure your TMK has one position at the shallowest depth and one at the deepest.
f. Put your front and rear doors (if applicable) keyed alike on a completely seperate key.

Installing a masterkey system generally indicates that the locksmith would like to continue to maintain it, but there is no real obligation unless the system is based on a restricted or high security key. You can take your business anywhere you'd like. Also, since the locksmith told you that he would bring it to you, he's given up any ownership right to the material.

Anyways, give that some thought and let us know how you decide to do it.

by **MrB** » 1 Nov 2004 17:03

On Varjeal's comments about key codes: with the Schlage deadbolt I recently bought, when I got it out of the packaging, I found the key code was 44484. I was kind of surprised at seeing all those 4s in there. Would this therefore be considered a weak bitting for a lock?

by **MrB** » 1 Nov 2004 17:08

On Kwikset key codes: On some Kwikset locks I recently bought (of the "Maximum Security" variety), the keys invariably had extreme high/low combinations, and at least one of the cuts was always the very top of the key blank (that is #0?). If Kwikset themselves set keys this way, it must be acceptable? (But perhaps depends on the lock itself...?)

by **wzd** » 2 Nov 2004 1:24

Varjeal - thanks for the reply. Your description of rules and whys is very helpful. Along those lines, is there a good reason for 55535 being a bad key, or does having that many bittings the same just feel bad? Or is it a picking related rule? (I don't think apt locks get picking attempted very often!)

I'm still planning on calling my ex-locksmith some more to request the master sheet with used/unused key info.

MrB and Chucklz: I measured the top of the uncut part of various keys I have, and it ranges from .333 to .340. One key with a 1 cut in the first position measures .333, and then the cut drops to .330. You can see/feel the drop, but it is real slight. I'm not sure how a higher cut than .329 could be made reliably. What does your highest cut measure MrB?

I have been looking for a good javascript project, so I am going to enhance my change key generator, for the practice. I'll post here when I put a new version up to get some feedback.

I did try to run "Key Mastery" but it needs a code from the builders, and I haven't gotten a response from them yet.

WZD

by **wzd** » 4 Nov 2004 0:30

ok, the script at http://home.earthlink.net/~wzd3/masterkey.htm has been updated with various suggestions. Any more thoughts are welcome. It is still a netscape 7 only scripts as far as testing goes.

Also, I haven't called my locksmith back yet...just been busy.

WZD[/url]

by **Varjeal** » 4 Nov 2004 11:12

Mr. B: The answer is yes and no. Heheehe.. No, in that because 4's are an intermediate depth, it would be difficult to lift all those to the proper position and then manipulate the fourth position to an 8 by accident. On the other hand, if you go by the "rules" the answer is of course yes. If that 8 depth was either at the bow or tip of the key the answer would be a definite yes, that is a very weak bitting.

Concerning your Kwikset questions, the bittings you notice are NOT examined for comfort of use or masterkeying possibilities, they are strictly MACS approved. That's it. When masterkeying smaller systems as a locskmith you have the option to go through the KBA chart and toss out combinations that would be considered extremes even though they may not violate MACS. Hope that makes sense.

wzd: In regards to your questions...the 55535 is not good because of considerations of wear within the lock and key itself. Depending on the amount of changes you may require, this may have to be ignored, but it's always good if you can have at least two different depths and repeat no more than three of the same in a key...not really a "rule" per se, but a good idea to keep in mind.

Hope that helps.

by **webidiot2** » 14 Dec 2005 2:27

I couldnt get the script to work

kwikset master key rules

kwikset master key rules

key system

key mastery

key mastery

thanks

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