Driver Pin Sidebar?

[Tighran]

Has there been a lock that uses the driver pins to control a sidebar?

Obviously there are some problems with this idea, but... there may be ways around them. For example depending on the location of the keypin, the driver pin may not even be lifted enough to interface with the sidebar. The best way I'm thinking of around this would be to have a sidebar that does not fall IN to the driver pins but is pushed OUT by them in some way. Since the driver pins are by definition outside of the plug, I imagine some sort of mechanism that allows the set driver pins to push some sort mechanism that would apply compression to a sprung sidebar set in the plug. At neutral the sidebar would be across the sheerline, but when the driver pins are properly set, the sidebar is pushed into the plug. This may be overly complicated, but was the first idea that came to me on how to implement a driver pin controlled sidebar.
Another idea would be some sort of T-shaped driver pins to restrict the range of movement of the driver pins, though... I suspect that would have its own difficulties.

Just curious if anything like this has been tried before!

[cj101]

There are many locks, which use driver pins to interfere with a sidebar. Have a look at the Medeco, the australian bilock, the Kwikset Smartkey and much others.

[Squelchtone]

There are many locks, which use driver pins to interfere with a sidebar. Have a look at the Medeco, the australian bilock, the Kwikset Smartkey and much others.

Which Medeco do you mean? the cam locks? I thought those were known or referred to as "driver-less" since the key pins have the little holes requiring lifting and twisting of the pin to align with the round tubes attached to the sidebar.

[cj101]

I think, I have mixed up driver pins and key pins again (I'm still fixed on the german names).

The medeco camlock uses driverless pins indeed, as well as the Bilock and the EVVA DPI.

However, this would be a complicated lock, as the driver pins are pushed away from the core. You have to translate somehow this motion into a motion putting something in the core. You would need some complicated mechanism to achieve this. As you would have to put this mechanism outside of the core, there won't be much space left. Last but not least - how do you want to accomplish picking resistance. There will be a sheerline and an equivalent locking mechanism using some form of sidebar.
As a lockpicker you can either use the sheerline tolerances or the sidebar tolerances for picking. Prdoucing it in a way, that both mechanism will almost have the same binding points will be extremely defficult (even Medeco locks bind either on the sidebar or the pins (false notches excluded here).

[FancyPants]

The first thing that I thought of with this idea is that it would completely eliminate any possibility of utilizing a traditional master keying system.

[YouLuckyFox]

I think, I have mixed up driver pins and key pins again (I'm still fixed on the german names).

Just remember: "Key pins touch the key, driver pins drive down the key pins."

[Squelchtone]

So I was thinking about this and trying to visualize it.. in a normal pin tumbler lock the key pins push up the driver pins and create a shear line, then the plug is already free to turn.. In this lock, if at this time there is a sidebar allowed to move now that the driver pins are above shear line, what exactly is suppose to be allowed to turn? another outer ring like a Corbin master ring cylinder?

Am I imagining your idea/design correctly?

Thanks
Squelchtone

[Tighran]

I don't really know! It was sort of an attempt to think outside the box, but as with many things I suspected someone had thought of this before and was wondering what smarter minds than my own could do with the idea.

The idea actually came to me as a way to allow master wafers to be used to increase picking resistance by creating false sheer lines.
My thought is that the workings of this sidebar actuator would have to be outside of the plug, so perhaps in a mortice cylinder as it might not fit in a Euro cylinder (I suppose in this way it's not truly self-contained the way most cylinders/KIK etc are...) The only thing allowed to turn is the plug itself, however in order to do so the sidebar has to be depressed into the plug against spring resistance by this actuator mechanism in the mortice body outside of the plug.

It certainly seems rather complex (nevermind other unresolved details like how the driver pins would actuate it) but I figured I'd throw the idea out there to see if it has been done before or if anyone else could think of some implementation for it.

[cj101]

Maybe, the closest lock to your ideas is the emergency lock of the Burg Wächter TSE electronic lock:

google for : burg wächter tse 5011 installation user manual

Unlike 'normal' locks, the emergency key is inserted into the housing just below the freely turning plug (when locked).

[mh]

With a sidebar?

[cj101]

Maybe with a sidebar (but I don't think so. However, this is one lock I know, where the key is inserted outside the plug.

[mh]

ok, that's indeed a lock cylinder with a main plug and the key not inserted into the main plug.
It has however an auxiliary plug, and that is a "standard" pin tumbler lock with two rows of pins.