Got a question about key machines? not sure what to buy? need a user manual? have some tips for keeping one running well or need help cutting or programming keys? Post here!
by Michelin Man » 29 Dec 2014 4:36
Hey Guys I have a old KIEL 4F that I just dug out of the garage, and it seems to have a blunt cutter so I bought a new one. The old cutter is a 23RF made by DL.Co. So I ordered a new cutter (Ilco 23RF)from the states (I’m in Australia). However, after removing the cutter from the interesting epoxy ‘shell’ I noticed that the teeth were much more spaced out, as well as the ‘cutting edge’ being about 2 – 2.5 times thicker and more rounded than the original cutter. The keys that are cut with the Ilco cutter have very wide cuts with curved corners. The finish looks like I've made the keys by hand with a round file. So basically I’m thinking the following: 1. The DL.Co 23RF is different to the Ilco 23RF (despite all the other measurements matching up) 2. The Ilco 23RF I got is defective (or mislabelled) However, when I measured the thickness of the cutting edge the old cutter is about 28 thousands (0.7mm) and the Ilco cutter is about 60 thousands (1.52mm). The fact that it is rounded like that does seem very odd. The Ilco Specs says the 23RF has a 45 degree angle on one side and is flat (0 degrees) on the other, and that the tip of the cutter is 31 thousands. These specs match my original cutter more than the Ilco one I received. I have also added photos showing the two cutters and the keys that have been cut with both.        Please let me know what you guys think, Thanks!
-

Michelin Man
-
- Posts: 34
- Joined: 25 Oct 2014 9:14
- Location: NSW, Australia
by billdeserthills » 29 Dec 2014 19:12
I can see what it is you are saying, however I don't see quite why exactly that it should matter to you. Obviously the cutter profile is slightly different between these two blades, but as long as your machine will cut a 3rd generation key, why should anyone care? I will agree that the RF (rotary file) cutters of yester-year have become something slightly more akin to a milling cutter, as their teeth are now sharper/larger than cutters from many years ago were, but again, as long as the machine cuts good, working keys, why should it matter?
-
billdeserthills
-
- Posts: 3837
- Joined: 19 Mar 2014 21:11
- Location: Arizona
by billdeserthills » 29 Dec 2014 19:14
Also I was thinking, if the new blade has any side to side movement, that would do the same thing between cuts
-
billdeserthills
-
- Posts: 3837
- Joined: 19 Mar 2014 21:11
- Location: Arizona
by hag3l3 » 29 Dec 2014 22:19
I have noticed some changes in the ilco cutters of late as well. however, I was not concerned as the depth and spacing of what I was duplicating still fell within factory oem tolerances. To me that is the real bottom line. By using the new blade, does what you are accomplishong still fall within factory tolerances? Hope this helps.
The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.
-
hag3l3
-
- Posts: 70
- Joined: 7 Nov 2014 22:54
- Location: Hurricane, WV
by Michelin Man » 30 Dec 2014 3:11
Thanks for the replies!
Basically I don't like the way it cuts, it looks like crap and not a quality finish IMO. I wanted it to give a sharp finish like the original and all other key machines out there.
I know the final result still works but to me that is besides the point. To me that would be like I bought a car with 80,000km which ran fine but it really had 380,000 km, I payed for a car with 80,000km and that is exactly what I expect.
Call it OCD or whatever, but I would like to know why it is like this.
There doesn't appear to be any side to side play from what I can see.
I do believe the Ilco 23RF is commonly used on a Mini-Mite 008a would anyone happen to have one of these to show a comparison?
-

Michelin Man
-
- Posts: 34
- Joined: 25 Oct 2014 9:14
- Location: NSW, Australia
by Michelin Man » 30 Dec 2014 3:29
Actually a better analogy would be if I ordered a black car but got a yellow one, sure it might still work and etc but it's not what I wanted.
I was just wanting to know, so if I was to buy another 23RF cutter if it would be just the same as the one I got or if this one is just different.
-

Michelin Man
-
- Posts: 34
- Joined: 25 Oct 2014 9:14
- Location: NSW, Australia
by Squelchtone » 30 Dec 2014 6:30
Michelin Man wrote:Actually a better analogy would be if I ordered a black car but got a yellow one, sure it might still work and etc but it's not what I wanted.
I was just wanting to know, so if I was to buy another 23RF cutter if it would be just the same as the one I got or if this one is just different.
maybe you can find an old stock 23RF on ebay or something, if in fact the specifications on the new one are a little different than what you are used to. just a thought, Squelchtone
-

Squelchtone
- Site Admin
-
- Posts: 11316
- Joined: 11 May 2006 0:41
- Location: right behind you.
by GWiens2001 » 30 Dec 2014 8:01
Perhaps the old cutter had been previously resharpened, too. Not a locksmith, so don't know for sure. But have to agree that the new cutter seems to cut what looks more like an impressioned key. Not quite like it was impressioned, but closer. Perhaps that is to reduce wear by making a more gentle angle?
Gordon
Just when you finally think you have learned it all, that is when you learn that you don't know anything yet.
-

GWiens2001
- Site Admin
-
- Posts: 7570
- Joined: 3 Sep 2012 16:24
- Location: Arizona, United States
by billdeserthills » 30 Dec 2014 23:17
Michelin Man wrote:Thanks for the replies!
Basically I don't like the way it cuts, it looks like crap and not a quality finish IMO. I wanted it to give a sharp finish like the original and all other key machines out there.
I know the final result still works but to me that is besides the point. To me that would be like I bought a car with 80,000km which ran fine but it really had 380,000 km, I payed for a car with 80,000km and that is exactly what I expect.
Call it OCD or whatever, but I would like to know why it is like this.
There doesn't appear to be any side to side play from what I can see.
I do believe the Ilco 23RF is commonly used on a Mini-Mite 008a would anyone happen to have one of these to show a comparison?
I do wonder if your tracer has more to do with this than the actual cutter. A couple of my machines use the 23RF, and to my eye, do look the same as your 23RF does
-
billdeserthills
-
- Posts: 3837
- Joined: 19 Mar 2014 21:11
- Location: Arizona
by Michelin Man » 31 Dec 2014 3:28
Funny enough I do believe the one I got off eBay is a NOS part. Here are pictures of the box it came in.   I crankd up the contrast on this picture to make it easier for you guys to read. I'm not sure how old it is as I can't quite make out any dates, apart from looking like it was bought from a website maybe. Interesting how you mention the guide, I was going to bring that up. I did previously make the tip of the guide a bit more pronounced as I believed the cuts were previously too narrow due to the worn cutter. However, after seeing how wide the cuts were I have dulled the guide as far as I believe is necessary however what you see in the pictures is what it comes out like. The guide thickness is 44 thou, but the tip of the cutter is almost 60 thou. However, as I think. Even if the guide was thick enough to suit the new cutter, the corners would still be curved due to the roundness of the cutter. All of the information so far still makes me believe this Ilco cutter is not to spec. *The tech specs on the Ilco cutter 'Guide' don't match the Ilco cutter I have (For cutter tip thickness) *The old DL.Co 23RF cutter seem to match the Ilco Cutter 'Guide' for the 23RF specs. *The guide is only 44 thou (the actual tip is smaller as it had a curved point) whereas the tip of the cutter is almost 60 thou. *The edges of cut keys are very rounded like I have never seen before. I think the 34MC (Milling cutter) doesn't even make rounded edges. billdeserthills: Would you be able to please measure the thickness of your 23RF cutters tip?
-

Michelin Man
-
- Posts: 34
- Joined: 25 Oct 2014 9:14
- Location: NSW, Australia
by jeffmoss26 » 31 Dec 2014 8:48
It can't be too old...it appears that Kaba became part of Ilco in 2001.
"I tried smoking a blank once. I was never able to keep the tip lit long enough to inhale." - ltdbjd
-
jeffmoss26
-
- Posts: 1090
- Joined: 13 Jan 2012 15:01
- Location: Cleveland, OH
by jeffmoss26 » 31 Dec 2014 8:51
Err...Kaba bought Ilco in 2001.
"I tried smoking a blank once. I was never able to keep the tip lit long enough to inhale." - ltdbjd
-
jeffmoss26
-
- Posts: 1090
- Joined: 13 Jan 2012 15:01
- Location: Cleveland, OH
by billdeserthills » 31 Dec 2014 16:03
Hey Michelin Man, I just remembered to measure one of my 23RF cutters. It measured .58, but my calipers has been bounced around, so it could be closer to .60 in real life. The tracer point is the same exact size and angle as the cutter. Maybe you could just buy a tracer for an HPC 9120 mini-speedex, that is the machine I just checked
-
billdeserthills
-
- Posts: 3837
- Joined: 19 Mar 2014 21:11
- Location: Arizona
by Michelin Man » 1 Jan 2015 21:09
Thanks billdeserthills!
Bugger, that's not what I was hoping to hear.
What are the dimensions for the guide?
I can't even find a part number from my searches.
Interesting, the 9120 uses a CW-23RM, so there does seem to be quite a few machines that use a cutter with the same dimensions.
I tried finding one for a Ilco Mini-Mite 008a which uses a 23RF cutter, but even then the site I found doesn't ship to Australia or charge a ridiculous amount to do so.
I'm still having doubts on whether the right guide will correct my issue since the curvature of the cutter just seems extreme. It will most likely reduce the width of the wide cuts but leave the soft edges intact.
At the moment I can either find a cutter that matches my old one, or find a guide that matches the cutter and that fits in my machine.
Either way is going to cost more than I was hoping to spend, as I just planned to restore the machine. The 008 guide was about US$60 plus at least US$30 postage is going to be well over AU$100 for a machine I don't even use on a daily nor weekly basis. So much for restoring a machine.
Even then I don't know if the 008 guide fits in my machine. My current guide is about 1/4" thick, 1/2" high and 1.650 inch long. However, I don't even know if it is the right guide for this machine. It looks like the back end of a 008 guide/tracer, the tip isn't angled like what you would normally see.
Does anyone happen to have a guide for a machine that uses a Ilco 23RF cutter that they could sell me that happens to match those dimensions?
or a Ilco 23RF/34MC or CW23RM cutter with a 31 thou tip?
-

Michelin Man
-
- Posts: 34
- Joined: 25 Oct 2014 9:14
- Location: NSW, Australia
by Michelin Man » 1 Jan 2015 21:49
Apologies for the numerous double posts, it seems I always find some useful information after my initial post.
My current guide looks like it was made for cutting lever lock type keys. But I have seen another Keil machine with the same guide so I think it's just the design Keil used.
I have found a different guide for the Ilco 008A which is cheaper than the Ilco 008 one I found earlier. Not sure of the dimensions as I can't seem to find any information.
But that does seem like the best bet at the moment.
-

Michelin Man
-
- Posts: 34
- Joined: 25 Oct 2014 9:14
- Location: NSW, Australia
Return to Key Machines & Programmers
Who is online
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest
|