Ilco 23RF Cutter Issue

[billdeserthills]

Omg $60 just for that little piece of metal seems wayyy too much, idk about the shipping but I'm sure that guide is cheaper elsewhere

[Raymond]

I am very surprised to see the differences you have shown on the new 23RF cutters. But only because I havent had to find one for over 20 years. Apparently ILCO has redesigned the cutter to be a step closer to being a milling cutter. The cutting edges seem a little farther apart and have more clearance as I can see from the picture.

If the new cutter appears to be good quality in all other regards and if it seems to be the only thing you can find, then I suggest having your guide reground to match the cutter. Or a machine shop could easily make a new guide exactly to your specifications for less trouble than ordering a new one and taking the chance that it no longer matches the original specifications. If you have one made, or make it yourself, then you will still have the original in case a stack of old cutters shows up in a garage sale some day.

[billdeserthills]

Say why not just pay the $15 and have the old cutter sharpened? Then you should be back where you wanna be and you can sell that new cutter on e-bay.
I have had several to many of my key machine cutters re-sharpened over the years and they work just like new when they come back. You will need to
re-calibrate your machine, but that is much cheaper than all this goofing around will be. I think the easiest way to find a sharpening service is to call a
Machine Tool supplier in your area, I'm sure folks where you are need end mills and other machine tooling. Anyone who can sharpen an end mill can likely
sharpen your old cutter and then it will be at about the same specs You want.

[Michelin Man]

I couldn't believe it myself when I saw the price on the guide, it was way too much, I was thinking the same of getting one made if it was going to be that much.

I wouldn't even know where to start looking for machine tool suppliers. I would have gotten the old cutter sharpened but from what I read if it is missing more than a few teeth it is far too gone. The old cutter seems to have made love to the jaws several times in it's life and destroyed about 1/4 or so teeth. The old cutters very thin as well and is undersized so yeah looks like the old one is out of the picture.

It does look like trying a new guide is the way forward at the moment. If anyone else has a 23RF cutter I'd be interested to hear the tip thicknesses, I just wanted to see how much those 23RF cutters have changed over time if they have.

Thanks guys!

[GWiens2001]

The yellow pages for your area is a good place to find machine shops. Call them and ask who they recommend for tool suppliers.

Gordon

[billdeserthills]

I believe the 23RF to be one of the commonest cutters in existance. Just in the last week I have seen at least 2 or 3 of these old time
23 RF cutters. None was marked, but they look the same, I bet You can find an older model if you take a look around.

[billdeserthills]

Sorry, I mean look on E-bay

[Michelin Man]

^ Unfortunately the only 23RF cutters I will find will be across the pond, with the very high postage prices it is not really feasible. I am really only restoring this machine as a hobby. So I don't plan to just throw money at it. Otherwise I'd get myself a cheap Wenxing machine which will suit my purposes better which is to rarely cut keys.

Add that to the fact the sellers would have to peel away part of the protective coating to measure the thickness. The ones I've asked won't do it, and some just say they're too lazy to which is fair enough.


I thought I'd update this thread on my progress. I have been working on it every now and then.

Since last time, I have changed the pulley to bring up the cutter speed a bit (was geared very low to about 500-600 rpm cutter speed). I don't know who put the large (6 inch) pulley on the cutter side, but I've changed it to a 3" pulley and now the cutter speed cuts much better, but I am getting a bit of vibration. I think this vibration may be due to the pulley not lining up as I had to re-drill the motor mount holes (it is mounted on a piece of plywood). I may need to go slightly bigger pulley to bring the rpm down a bit.

Does anyone know the ideal speed for a 23RF cutter or even a 34MC cutter?

As for the tracer, I have been in 'negotiation' with lockpicks.com for a 008A/008B tracer and a HPC 9120RM tracer. Who have just put an order in for me so they should get it in about 2 weeks. I have asked them to measure the tracer tips before sending them out in case I need to buy their own 23RF cutter which they say is 31 thou. I was trying to avoid buying another cutter as it means I've wasted money on the one I have now.

The KEIL 4F I believe originally was made only for skeleton keys. The tracer measures 44 thou thick, and according to ILCO specs the slotting cutter is 45 thou. Despite all the KEIL 4Fs I see have a 23RF cutter on them still using the wrong tracer. This threw me off a bit but then again I haven't seen too many KEIL 4Fs out there.

I will update this thread when I receive the tracers. Also the roof above my work area suddenly decided to leak and get water all over my key machine. Rusted up the cutter really good and a bit of the jaws. Kinda like a sign.

[billdeserthills]

I don't think You should make a big deal out of hardened steel getting rusty. You should have seen my milling machine when I first got it in my garage. I used a sponge with a green pad on it for days, just dipping it into oil and giving the ways a good scouring. Thing works like new now and I keep it oiled up good, to prevent further rust. I'm kinda surprised You didn't just get a piece of metal and make Your own tracer, You sounded like a "hands on" kinda guy, to me. The professional one will last much longer, of course, if it will fit your machine. I mean when it does fit Your machine. Might wanna keep that file handy, just in case

[Jburgett2nd]

For rust I like to use phosphoric acid it turns iron oxide (rust) into iron phosphate which does not degrade as easily. Just an old trick I picked up when I was a farm boy.

[Michelin Man]

I don't think You should make a big deal out of hardened steel getting rusty. You should have seen my milling machine when I first got it in my garage. I used a sponge with a green pad on it for days, just dipping it into oil and giving the ways a good scouring. Thing works like new now and I keep it oiled up good, to prevent further rust. I'm kinda surprised You didn't just get a piece of metal and make Your own tracer, You sounded like a "hands on" kinda guy, to me. The professional one will last much longer, of course, if it will fit your machine. I mean when it does fit Your machine. Might wanna keep that file handy, just in case

I'm not so worried about the looks of it, although if I was to sell it people would think its a few years old and I wouldn't get much for it.

I soaked it in a bit of ATF and tried to get a bit of it off, but its stained. I just kept it lubed up and put it back on.

If I had the right size bar stock I would have made my own. Since I couldn't find any easily, I'd have to get a square stock and mill it down, which without a mill is just too much effort.

I was thinking of turning the tracer I got now around and filing it, but the metal it's made of is harder than my files. It's like a chrome steel, like a spanner it doesn't rust up easily or at all.


The KEIL, HPC, 008 and I'm sure a few others all "seem" to based on the same design using the same cutters and tracers. Guess I'll find out when the tracers come.

For others that may be reading there are 2 different 008 tracers, one I believe is for the 008A/008B and one for the 008. One is single sided (rotary file only) which is about $12 and one is double sided for skeleton keys as well which is $62.

For rust I like to use phosphoric acid it turns iron oxide (rust) into iron phosphate which does not degrade as easily. Just an old trick I picked up when I was a farm boy.

Cheers for that, I'd have to look into it. I heave heaps of rusty things around here. I really ought to fix that leak haha.

I remember a video on youtube I watched they sell it as a particular brand. He drops a rusty brake rotor into the solution, comes back a while later and all the rust is gone and its changed to a grey colour.

Wonder if it's the same stuff.

[jeffmoss26]

I think you are talking about Evapo-Rust.

[bitbuster]

michelin: if you are looking for a 23RF wheel with certain specs then talk to mark at gil-ray tools. he can sharpen yours to your specs.
http://www.gilraytools.com

[Michelin Man]

I think you are talking about Evapo-Rust.

It's similar to Evapo-Rust, I tried looking for the video of the one I'm talking about but the example in the video I'm talking about came out really really nice.

The Evapo-Rust video I saw was similar but the colour was a bit off and it didn't come out as nice, but could just be dodgy marketing.

michelin: if you are looking for a 23RF wheel with certain specs then talk to mark at gil-ray tools. he can sharpen yours to your specs.
http://www.gilraytools.com

Someone mentioned that earlier, the cutter is too far gone, and I'm not in the US, if the cutter was impossible to find I would have gone that route.

[Jburgett2nd]

I use this stuff http://www.homedepot.com/p/Klean-Strip- ... /100406369 pretty basic, gets the job done. Did you find a solution to your problem with the cutter yet?