Drop safe one door open one locked

[Relic]

Hello! My first post!

A "free" safe was offered to me by a local business a few years ago... I bit and invested some time and sweat to get the beast home. I liked the two rotating port style doors and brass hinges.

It came to me with no combinations and only one door open. The open door is the top one and there is a trap door to drop wallet sized items into the bottom compartment. I was able to take the top door apart and learn the combo. The bottom door was a bit more challenging, I tried like the guys in the movies with my engine stethoscope and all I could hear was the old dial scratching away. Years passed with the safe in sitting in the corner of my shop.

Last week I took a look at it again and noticed that if I could get to the back of the locked door I could get to the changing tool hole... I have now removed the trap door and now have access to the lower compartment. Sadly there was no treasure in the lower compartment.

This is where I am at now. What should I do next? There is a thick plate covering the lock mechanism, the plate is part of the door and when locked it interfaces with the safe, so no further disassembly is possible. I can get a light and camera in there and I expect I should be able to see the disk closest to the inside of the safe through the changing tool hole giving me the 3rd number of the combo.

Cheers!

[Squelchtone]

Hi,

a picture is worth a 1000 words, so that we know what kind of safe you are talking about, please take some pics of the whole safe, and then of the two dials/doors more close up and upload them to http://imgur.com or to http://tinypic.com or the hosting site of your choice, and Copy/Paste the addresses into your replies here.

Cant wait to see this thing, it sounds like you're doing a good job figuring it out so far!
Squelchtone

[Relic]

Here are some pictures I found on the net, The door on the safe pictured is exactly like the one I have except my safe has two doors. The one pictured has also been painted.
Notice the small combination changing key hole on the backside of the door. From my searches I believe the lock mechanism to be a SG, Sargent and Greenleaf.

[Squelchtone]

Do you have enough access to reach your hand in and stick something into the change key hole of the locked door? I could at least tell you how to retrieve the last number of the combination very easily, then its a little more work (read: complete pain in the ass to get the 1st and 2nd digit of the combination doing it this way)

Let me know and I'll provide some instrucitons, a real photo of the relation of the 2 doors would really help, I'm having a hard time visualizing the trap door you removed. as long as you can stick your hand in and touch the back of the other lock we are in business..

Thanks
Squelchtone

[Relic]

Hi Squelchtone,

Yes, now that the trap door is removed there is a 6"x8" opening in the 1.5" plate between the upper and lower compartments.
I have reached in there (to check for treasure) and then found the hole in the plate giving access to the combination changing hole.
Will be working blind unless I setup a light and camera.

Just found some history on the manufacturer as well:
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Locksmithing-3110/2008/12/Herman-Safe.htm

[Relic]

I found a picture of my exact safe! this one is in rough shape though.

The pictured safe is lying on its side.

[Squelchtone]

she's a beaut Clark!

you took your other lock apart so you know how it works right? you know about the little black square holes in each wheel that the change key goes into right? What we're gonna do it get a metal coathanger and cut it to a 6 inch piece and put a bend in one end to make a comfortable handle. next practice with the door you already have open. file or sand the end of the coathanger so it is not sharp, the rounder the better so it doesnt dig into or scratch the wheels. on the door that is open, attempt to stick the hanger into the change key hole and at the same time turn the dial counter clockwise and observe what happens. It should eventually drop in 1 step deeper when the wheel's change key hole is aligned with the coat hanger. when this happens, you will notice that on the dial's change index at around 11 oclock, it will be on the combinations last number. Do this several times so that you can get the hang of doing it blind and then do the same thing on the door that is locked. This will at least get you the last number of the combination so you can see if the 2 locks share the same combo or if it is totally different.

Getting the 2nd and 1st number of the combo requires a lot more spinning of the dial, do this first and we'll take it from there. If any of this was confusing, I can take some photos tonight, but I have a feeling you'll get what I'm saying you seem mechanically inclined.

Good luck,
Squelchtone

[Relic]

Thanks for the info, I understand what you are saying will try that as soon as I can. I have some heavy copper wire that will work.
World Junior hockey was last night and for some of us it is Christmas Eve today.
Probably will get back to this next week.

I will also get some help and post actual pictures of my safe.

Thanks again!

[Relic]

last night I tried the wire method on the the open door and learned the combo. Took the door off to move to the bench. There was a tolerance of plus/minus 3 with the wire I used. Was also hard to tell if the wire was in the notch of the disk or in the combo changing hole. now know that these are 180deg apart.

Moved to the locked door and got the first two numbers pretty quickly and noticed that they were both 50 off of the top lock. Took a shot at the first number being 50 off as well and bingo door open! Got lucky! Getting the 3rd number is still a mystery to me and would like to know how to do it.

Attached are some pictures of my safe. Yes, I used a heavy adjusting tool to force the drop chute door

I'm going to guess that the safe is a 1951 based on the casting numbers of the top and bottom doors.

[Squelchtone]

Very well done man!

Thank you for the follow up with photos, always appreciated =)

Squelchtone

[Valdo]

Wow, the more I look these safe topics, the more I want to get one and learn how to open it, it seems to be the pinnacle of locksport :O

[Relic]

It was a fun project, finding time for these things is the hard part.
Next step for me is remove the bottom door and take a grinder and the sledge to the outer skin and body of the safe. Want to take it down to the inner core and then cement it into something else. I want to learn how to jewel the doors and hinges too.

[cledry]

When I read through the CKH I get the first two numbers and then progress the other number. Most often people use numbers like 5, 10, etc so I go around the dial every 5 numbers, if that doesn't do it I do 2.5 numbers.

[Relic]

I had an easy first time at this method for sure. Should I have changed to a larger diameter wire once I found the first two numbers to narrow the tolerance?
Using the wire I used and If the second lock had a completely different combo I would have had 6 possible numbers for the 3rd due to tolerance, don't really know what tolerance I would have for the 2nd but it would be at least doubled as there is no way to know if you are in the key hole or the slot, and then if I try every 5 for the 1st that's another 20 and up to 20 more @2.5... Lots of dialing!

Am I missing something? What is CKH?

[Squelchtone]

Am I missing something? What is CKH?

Change Key Hole

=)