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by ESOG » 9 Jan 2015 13:02
NOTE: FOR THOSE WHO DON'T PARTICULARLY CARE TO READ MY INTRODUCTION AND WANT TO SKIP STRAIGHT TO MY QUESTION, SCROLL DOWN UNTIL YOU SEE THIS, ************* First of, allow me to introduce myself; My name is Paul and I live just North of NYC, USA. I have been participating in the hobby of lock picking for a little over 4 years now. I have a wonderful set of picks from Sparrow, called the Whizwazzle (I am sure most of you have heard of Sparrow and also Whizwazzle). I also have the coveted set of both mini and regular sized titanium Bogota picks, which I am sure I do not have to say are absolutely wonderful! In fact, when messing around with my various hobby locks I rarely use anything else! I also have a bump set and quick shims. I was always interested in the sport of lock picking, and it has proven to be a very fun hobby to pass the time. I dont know why, but there is just something undeniably fascinating about picking a lock. And equally thrilling is when you successfully open a lock! Especially one you have been toying with for hours! I started out about 4 years ago with getting myself a bump hammer and the standard set of N. American keys. It was fun, but I quickly realized bumping was also quite limited to lower end locks like one may have on their bedroom door, i.e. Kwikset. Too easy! My wish list for this year is going to be the purchase of a good plug spinner (dont you hate it when you spend a while on a lock only to open it and realize you did it the wrong way!  ), I also want to get a good set of clear view practice locks, like a Schlage practice set with the ability to put in and remove the pins, including security pins because to be honest I havent really got too far into the art of actually PICKING a lock, its been moreso using the Bogota's, so more like raking and feeling. I want to put my Whizwazzle set to use and begin to learn actually picking, i.e., pin order, defeating security pins, etc. Soooo, I figure that should keep me occupied for a while until I become familiar with it. ************** Okay, onto my question; How do you folks feel and go about picking a lock which has been installed upside down? My friend has 2 locks in his home which are Schlage's and have been purposely installed upside down as to deter a person who may want to pick it. The funny thing is, his first lock he had on his home office door was a Kwikset installed in a normal manner and he was betting me I couldnt open it. Well, before he could even finish his taunting at me I opened it! hahahah His face was one of complete surprise and WTF! moment! He called his son up immediately and told him to bring him a better lock (his son is a locksmith and we have grown close due to our mutual interest). So now my friend has a Schlage and his son installed upside down. I have been trying to open it, my friend standing over my shoulder taunting me and loving his revenge lol, and I cannot for the life of me get the thing open! I am not even sure if it has security pins because of it being upside down I am not comfortable with the feel and cant tell if the tension wrench has turned ever so slightly as they usually do with a lock that has security pins, or if the tension is merely settling. Also, it doesnt help that it is a deadbolt, AND close to the frame so I am using my Bogota mini's, AND the actual key way is very tight. Which brings me to another question I have; Do tension wrenches all basically have a standard width? Because my Bogota's as well as the 11 tension wrenches from my Whizwazzle set all are pretty much the same width. Are the slimmer tension wrenches for tight keyways such as the one I am describing?
And lastly, can someone please recommend me a good quality plug spinner? Sparrows carries almost everything under the lock picking sun EXCEPT a plug spinner, go figure! LOL
Thank you in advance, and thank you for reading! I am happy to be a part of the community and to learn as well as share experiences!
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by Squelchtone » 9 Jan 2015 13:32
Your friend should put those locks back to normal, I get unreasonably angry when I see a USA native lock mounted upside down for no good reason. This will not deter picking, so I hope the son doesn't install all his locks like that telling customers it prevents picking, and at least to me looks wrong when I approach a door and see that. Some maintenance guy at work installed some locks "upsidedown" on a couple doors.. he and I had some strong words about it. In Europe they use something called profile cylinders in their doors, they are made in a way that to us appears that the keyway is upsidedown and the pins and springs are below the keyway. Folks can pick those just fine. As to Schlage, I've found that they are easy to false set with a Bogota, but then it helps to go in with a hook pick to finish off the job. Top of Keyway (TOK) tension wrench will also give you more room in the / angled Schlage C keyway. Either way, if you're used to picking locks one way, now you'll just need more practice to pick them the European way, that's all there really is to it, just more practice. Welcome to the forum, it sounds like you're already off to a good start with the tools you own Squelchtone

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by ESOG » 9 Jan 2015 17:15
Thank you for the welcome Squelch, and thank you for the advice. I am pretty sure the son does NOT install customer locks upside down, I think he just did these in that way to give his dad a bit more of a feeling of security, even if doing so does nothing at all to deter lock picking. However I will say that I have a significantly tougher time trying to pick it being upside down. But then again, I am an amateur. I just feel that I cannot get a good "feel" of the tension of the springs/pins, etc with it being upside down. It doesnt help either that the lock is very close to the door frame, AND as I mentioned the tight keyway. But I will certainly look into a tensioner that is used on the top of the keyway. Is there is a specific name for it, and or website to purchase it? or are you saying that i can use any tensioner to do it, just put it on the top instead? Also, can you lead me in the right way to obtaining a quality plug spinner? Thanks again Squelch! To be honest I was expecting a bit more replies! LOL HEY SQUELCH, I just looked this up, what do you think? I bought my first bump hammer and bump key set from Peterson. I hear they are one of the top LP Companies? So i got to say, read the description and a few things caught my eye, I would like to hear your opinion on the following: * It has a notch to "eliminate contact with the first pin", I think that it awesome! Because just last night as a matter of a fact as I was showing a friend my Bogota's and picking his bedroom Kwikset over and over again to his astonishment (hehe), I mentioned to him how sometimes it's hard to maneuver the tools because of a tight key way AND bumping into the first pin! Especially if the first pin is the last in the pin-pick order because trying to maneuver the pick without accidentally lifting the first pin is a challenge some times! * Question - What is the advantage and disadvantage of using a tension wrench with or without "teeth"? Is this "Pry-bar" just another name for tension wrench, yes? I have almost 15 tension wrenches and I have not noticed any one of them with serrated ends or "teeth" if that is the same thing? What is the purpose? THANK YOU! http://www.thinkpeterson.com/tensiontools.htmlNEW:Peterson Pry Bar - NO TEETH: $8.00 GREAT FOR TOP OF KEYWAY PICKING You asked for it, You Got It! The Peterson Pry Bar is for the many lock pickers who requested our strong and solid tension tool - but without teeth. At 0.050, our "Toothless" Pry Bar" is the width of the key blade segment of most keyways. This strong-arm partner is notched to eliminate contact with the first pin, flat to fit in your pick set, and has our serrated edge technology that locks it in any keyway! Made of our famous Government Stainless Steel: only the best, of course!
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ESOG
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by Raymond » 9 Jan 2015 22:19
Welcome to the forum. Search through the picks thread and you will find a LOT of suggestions and comments on making picks. Begin making your own tools!  The most common sources of spring steel are: 1. Street sweeper blades found in the gutters (unless your city uses nylon.) 2. Windshield wiper reenforcement flat rods made of stainless. They come in many sizes. Get them out of the trash at garages, truckstops, and autoparts stores for free. 3. Ground or hammered flat allen wrenches. 4. Flattened and ground bicycle spokes. 5. Plumbers drain cleaner flex rods. 6. Leaf rake tines 7. Electrician fish tape. And hundreds of other items which I am sure following posters will continue to list. There is no limit to what you can use. Make your own and you will get EXACTLY what you wanted and can make another whenever you want. Most of us have a pick set with more turning tools than actual picks. My personal favorite design is one made from a street sweeper brush. I put a small step on the end of the blade so I can use either the full width in the keyway bottom or the step for top of keyway. I can make one of these in less than one minute. This is not rocket science. My favorite plug spinner is the one made by A-1. About your other question relating to upside down locks. Yes, they are more difficult. But, only because most of us are just used to practicing on a lock with the pins at the top. If your friend used a Schlage F series locking knob, the top pins are stepped and the heavier than normal spring fits down below the shear line on small pins. This acts nearly like a security pin and jams the shear on the spring. The Schlage deadbolts are almost always containing spool pins in the first 4 or 5 pins. The last pin should be solid to make key entry and removal smoother. Schlage pins are harder and smoother nickle-silver metal and the springs are usually stronger than most other locks. Schlage lock cylinders are made very precisely and there is almost NO wobble to the pins in the holes. Generally we prefer to mount our locks with the spring on top because if mounted upsidedown, as the years go by, the lock fills with dust, graphite, sand, lint, etc. And then it rains and you have mud in your lock. Just enough so that some day when you put your key in, the pins will go down and the mud will be so thick that the springs cannot push them back up. Or the dust actually fills in the gaps in the spring and the key will not go in at all. With the lock mounted - springs up - you can spray the lock with a solvent or thin lube and wash all the bad stuff out. Now the lock works again. Remember that there is Method to our Madness.
Nothing is foolproof to a talented fool. Wisdom is not just in determining how to do something, but also includes determining whether it should be done at all.
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by billdeserthills » 10 Jan 2015 0:43
I think putting a lock on upside down looks wrong, but I can't fault it because of all the up-side down profile locks I see all over. They work just fine upside down, so why not, Far as picking goes, I find using my pick gun is slightly more difficult on a schlage keyway upside down. I did just buy a downward stroke pick gun, and it should make the upside down locks about the same in difficulty
I use an HPC Flip-It plug spinner and I have seen some really nice looking plug spinner guns on honrow for cheaper, that I think I'd try instead, but the flip it works 9 out of 10 tries
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by cledry » 10 Jan 2015 6:06
I've tried all the plug spinners over the years, at least up until 5 years ago. However when I began in the business about 30+ years ago I had the A1 plug spinner and it has proven to be the best. I still have it and it still works plus it fits in a pick case nicely. I have the other plug spinners that were given to me or purchased because they looked nice throwing around in a box in the attic.
Jim
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by nite0wl » 13 Jan 2015 20:52
Despite all of the probably more experienced and professional opinions already expressed I personally love my Peterson plug spinner (on the other hand I generally love all of my Peterson tools). Enough people have expressed appreciation for their A1 plug spinners that I would probably buy one anyway if the price were right.
As for 'upside-down' locks, more than anything else, it is a matter of practice (like just about anything in lockpicking). Like you I had someone challenge me to pick a couple of their locks (they had thrown away the keys long ago) and the locksmith who had done the installation had put them in upside down. These were cheap Kwiksets so I went to the manufacturer's website and downloaded the installation instructions, I went to a local hardware store and bought the same model of lock; I mounted these locks in my vise in the same orientation as the ones I was challenged to pick and I practiced every day. When the day came for me to show up at the site to pick and rekey the locks I had the whole job done in minutes, because I had practiced the scenario and I had familiarised myself with that exact type of lock. If you want to beat your friend, get some similar lock cylinders (by the sound of it you should be sufficiently familiar with the keyway by now to pick one off the store shelf or out of a catalogue), put them in a vise or clamp and practice picking them just as you would in situ. The ability to get them open is down to practice and familiarity with the meaning of the feedback you get. The first time you encounter a new lock it might seem like it isn't giving you feedback but, usually it is you just are having a hard time recognizing it because it isn't in the form you are used to.
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by cj101 » 14 Jan 2015 12:20
Here in Germany, we have all locks mounted 'upside-down'. However, as most already told you, it's just a matter of training and experience. Lockpicking is not harder if the cylinder is mounted the other direction. The most prominent difference is, that the key pins are falling down by gravity in the US, if no longer binding. Hencde, it can be sometimes harder, to notice, if you overset a pin. In 'downside-up' mounted locks you feel, if the pin falls through gravity and you know, that you did not overset.
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