Trouble with serrated pins

[TL140]

Hey locksmiths!

So I have practiced and practiced and I have got pretty good with spool pins and standard pins. Here in front of me I have an american A1100 that I have only picked once in a total of 120 hours put into it. I can see the first pin inside is a serrated keypin and I am willing to put money that the driver pin is serrated as well.

I have looked all over google, and i have seen guides on security pins, but most are very brief and not very in depth. What exactly am i looking to see/hear/feel when dealing with serrated? Also, could you guys give me advice on knowing that I have overpicked a pin? I am guessing that I am having trouble overpicking these spawn of satan pin types but i could be wrong! I may even have trouble just setting them.

Any tips would be lovely!

-Tony

[femurat]

Light tension usually works good for these locks. For the 1100 I like TOK tension and a medium hook.
I learned that if it is not giving you a false set after setting a few pins it's better to release the tension and start over again.

Good luck and keep us updated

[Squelchtone]

[EDIT: Thread moved from Beginner Questions to Pick-Fu [Intermediate Level]

[cheerIO]

Check out my reply to this other thread it has some of my hints;
http://www.lockpicking101.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=59215&p=435220&hilit=cheerio+american#p435113

I had a heck of time with Americans too. But it really took me pinning them up one pin at a time to teach me what feeling I was looking for when a pin actually set. I asked a bunch of people. But in truth, no one is going to be able to describe to you what YOU are going to feel with a true set. Serrated pins are a much more subtle feeling than other security pins. If you don't have keys for your lock, I really suggest buying one so that you can disassemble it and learn progressively. That's what worked for me anyways.

[ggpaintballer]

I too find American serrated too be much tougher than spools. What I will generally do is use a peterson gem and go from the bottom of the keyway. If I can't seem to get the right tension going I will switch to another thickness. One of my first americans was opened using a 15 thousandths gem. The thinner material allows for increased flexion in the pick. By switching through the 3 thicknesses you can find one that is giving the correct pressure on the pin. The thinner ones will also be more forgiving if you are applying too much pick pressure and over setting. If you can't set pins your tension is too heavy. After some practice you can get this all done with the tension bar only.

[TL140]

Thanks for the replies guys!

I too use a peterson pry bar for TOK tension on this lock. I seem to get a false set very rarely. Another issue I have is that from the start to the false set, ALL my pins seem to be bound except the very first pin. I tried hard tension but you guys are right about the light tension. Also when setting the pins, i have to apply a substantial amount of force to lift them. Should that really happen? I have tried graphite lube to mineral oil, all the way to WD40. TBH mineral oil actually worked better than graphite lube.

[GWiens2001]

If you put in graphite, then mineral oil or WD-40, you likely have come across the phenomenon known as 'mud'.

Be sure to clean it out thoroughly, as it can bind the pins nicely.

Gordon

[TL140]

:shock: If you put in graphite, then mineral oil or WD-40, you likely have come across the phenomenon known as 'mud'.

Be sure to clean it out thoroughly, as it can bind the pins nicely.

Gordon

I washed the pins and core individually before re-lubricating. I may need to try 2 pin to start out with like CheerIO said.

[GWiens2001]

Good man.

Gordon

[TL140]

Update:

So I think I finally got the hang of it. Instead of focusing purely on my pick feedback, I actually pay more attention to my tension wrench, Once I set a pin i can feel a subtle snap counter rotation and then a add on to the false set. I actually am starting to enjoy this. Haha.

Picked 5 times in the past 3 hours. American Lock A1100. The first time I had it picked, I thought it was just a very deep false set since the spring tension is brutal on this thing. I picked for at least 10 minutes before I twitched from a hand cramp and was curious on why it didnt move back, so i pushed it forward and viola!

I also bought some sparrow progressive practice locks the other week and got them in a few days ago. Without any feedback, I must say, these are the hardest standard pin cylinders I have ever attempted. I am stuck at 3 pin. The tolerances are very very tight on these things. I also cramp up a lot faster since I am working with such a small assembly. Maybe its time to invest in a vice

[DCT]

It's good to hear you got the hang of it TL140!
That means there's hope for me;)
(I'm in the same situation you described)
Lots of good pointers given!

[swampy3524]

Just started playing with serrated pins. I can see what they mean by the tension bar. I have better luck with a thin tension on top of keyway a little easier fot feeling. However I am using a southord tension and pick set and the tension wrench keeps falling out on me.

[Divinorum]

Update:

So I think I finally got the hang of it. Instead of focusing purely on my pick feedback, I actually pay more attention to my tension wrench, Once I set a pin i can feel a subtle snap counter rotation and then a add on to the false set. I actually am starting to enjoy this. Haha.

Picked 5 times in the past 3 hours. American Lock A1100. The first time I had it picked, I thought it was just a very deep false set since the spring tension is brutal on this thing. I picked for at least 10 minutes before I twitched from a hand cramp and was curious on why it didnt move back, so i pushed it forward and viola!

I also bought some sparrow progressive practice locks the other week and got them in a few days ago. Without any feedback, I must say, these are the hardest standard pin cylinders I have ever attempted. I am stuck at 3 pin. The tolerances are very very tight on these things. I also cramp up a lot faster since I am working with such a small assembly. Maybe its time to invest in a vice

Definitely get a vice. Harbor freight and other places sell suction cup vices that are pretty cheap. I don't even use the suction cup because the weight of the vice itself works fine. The vice will alleviate the cramping and make the picking more realistic because in reality those key in knob cylinders would be in a knob and not something you can hold in your hand.

[kyric]

I purchased 3 American 1105 locks. The serrated pins and mushroom/serrated security pins, we're giving me fits. I made a Peterson style tensioner and that helped some, I found that a light touch helps. Dumped the pins and did the 1 2 3 and so on pinning. This helped quite a bit, went to a thin hook for more maneuverability in lock.
I have worked up to 6 pins with a light touch and patience they can be defeated. The hardest part was learning not to be heavy handed. It takes time at first but when you pop the lock it's worth it

[deolslyfox]

When you are starting the pick try zipping into a false set then knock off the binders.

If you get hung up at the end where everything feels set, and you're not over set, start zipping again to tap the serrateds that are close, on home.

I used this technique on 3 1105s today.