6-Pin Lock(s) Assistance

[parkourer]

Hey guys,

Hope some of you are awake to help me out Otherwise i guess I'll just have to wait until tomorrow to get replies.

I pretty much proved myself a lame picker today. I purchased a cutaway padlock on Amazon, that everybody said was a perfect "beginners" lock and easy. One of the reviews said:

My eight year old kids love Supernatural so they became interested in lock picking. I got them this to go along with a lock picking set and not only do they love it, but we leave the set out of picks and this lock out as a coffee table item

You know,if a 5 year old kid could do it, surely I could do it easily, right ? Wrong!

Anyway, long story short, I've been trying to pick this thing at least once everyday since i got it (6 days ago). Its a Blossom Chinese padlock that was made into a Cutaway in America. I found out it has 6 pins no security pins, but the keyhole seems to be bigger than i am used to, and i can't find a binding pin for the life of me. Any tips other than the usual? (keep trying etc. etc.?)

Here is a pic of the padlock


And of the key


here is the link to the item. http://amzn.com/B00M5YX3OY

Thanks in advance for your replies!

[GWiens2001]

If you are going to get a cutaway to see how things work, get one with the plug cut, too. With the padlock in the picture, you can't see what your pick is doing or the key pins.

Cutaway locks are great for understanding how locks work, and maybe the first part of having the pick in the lock and seeing how the pins respond to the pick. After that, they lose effectiveness as a teaching tool, as most cutaway locks do not pick the same way as a normal lock.

Gordon

[nite0wl]

I have (or at least I had one until it wasn't returned) one of those locks and there are some issues with them.
1. clean and lubricate it thoroughly, use a pin or a pair of fine tweezers and a hobby knife or razor blade to make sure you remove any debris from the area around the plug and pin stacks
2. You have multiple springs putting counter-pressure on the plug (the locking tabs and the large pin that rides in the groove at the rear of the plug both exert force on the plug), account for this in your tension
3. It is hard to tell from your photo but in the examples I have seen in person the pins where of very poor quality and tend to act like very bad spools (there are small deformities at each end which catch on the edge of the shearline and the burring left behind by the milling process), this can result in a 'gritty' feeling when manipulating the lock and can cause pins to rapidly switch between feeling like they are bound and not bound
4. The plug will only turn clockwise, do not apply counter-clockwise tension, the plug will not rotate significantly

[parkourer]

With the padlock in the picture, you can't see what your pick is doing or the key pins.

Thanks for the reply Gordon!
But i can still see the driver pins, and those kinds of cutaways are pretty expensive
How would you tackle this one?

2. You have multiple springs putting counter-pressure on the plug (the locking tabs and the large pin that rides in the groove at the rear of the plug both exert force on the plug), account for this in your tension
3. It is hard to tell from your photo but in the examples I have seen in person the pins where of very poor quality and tend to act like very bad spools (there are small deformities at each end which catch on the edge of the shearline and the burring left behind by the milling process), this can result in a 'gritty' feeling when manipulating the lock and can cause pins to rapidly switch between feeling like they are bound and not bound

Did you actually have this lock?! I'm going to PM you sometime.
But by accounting for the counter pressure with the tension, do you mean increase the tension? Isn't too much tension bad for the lock?
Also how would you tackle #3? If there are deformities in the lock that cause pins to switch between bound and not bound how should i proceed?
How much time did it take to pick it?

[doublez]

I too have this lock.

I don't pick it much, because, as other people said, cutaway locks feel very different from normal locks. However, due to it being a 6-pinner, and so cheaply made, it can be hard.

I just picked it with a Top-of-keyway wrench, a Southord slimline hook, and a batarang rake. Here's what I noticed:

• The back pins can be really hard to reach. Using a Top-of-keyway wrench really helps here.
• Slimline hook also helps with allowing you more access to the pins
• Sometimes, you'll set a pin, then it'll slip back down later. Could be the effect of low quality pins, as nite0wl wrote. If you can't find a binding pin, apply slightly more tension, and look through all the pins you've already set.

hope this helps,
-dz

[onionz]

My guess would be you overset the binding pin and therefore all the others are free moving.

[deolslyfox]

Starting out with a 6-pin lock is, as you learned, the shortcut to frustration ....

Get something easy - a cheap 4-pin MASTER or a $1.00 Chinese lock at the dollar store. They are easy picks and the basics of tension and pin manipulation that you learn will be the foundation of the skills that you refine as you progress.

Don't fall for the hype / ads / etc .... If it was that easy there wouldn't be any locksmiths ....

FWIW I don't like "cut-away" locks. You can see 'em on YouTube and learn how a basic pin tumbler lock works w/o spending any $$. When you "get to picking", you aren't going to be able to see any pins. Its all about feel and a little bit of sound. If you stay with the hobby, you can literally pick a lock in the dark.

Anyhow - don't get frustrated. Just re-clock a bit. Get some experience under your belt. If you're ready to start working security pins grab a MASTER 140. It has ONE security pin in position 3. Then go to a MASTER 150. Its a 5-pinner with THREE security pins. Both have spools. Work with these until you are proficient. Then move up to something like a small AMERICAN .... There you'll run across serrated pins .... Different animal from spools and can be very challenging at first !!

Another option is to get one of the locks that have been set up with allen screws in the bible so that you can repin at will w/o taking the lock apart. They will come with extra pins. They run about $40 - $50, but at the end of the day you have "endless combinations" of security and standard pin setups. There's a 6 pin and a 7 pin version. Unless you are going to set up challenge locks, just go for the 6-pin version. When you get to the point that you can populate it with 5 or 6 serrated pins and pick it proficiently, you'll be ready to handle most anything that comes down the pike.

Good luck and hang in there !!

[nite0wl]

This one is quite badly made and the cutaway doesn't help it. I found several times that even when the pins look like they are set, they still need to be raised slightly higher because of burring and deformities on the ends of the pins.

[parkourer]

[*] Sometimes, you'll set a pin, then it'll slip back down later. Could be the effect of low quality pins, as nite0wl wrote. If you can't find a binding pin, apply slightly more tension, and look through all the pins you've already set.[/list]

Another person who has this lock! What do you mean by looking through all the all the pins that I've set? If their set won't i see that they are? And how much tension?

Get something easy - a cheap 4-pin MASTER or a $1.00 Chinese lock at the dollar store. They are easy picks and the basics of tension and pin manipulation that you learn will be the foundation of the skills that you refine as you progress.

Don't fall for the hype / ads / etc .... If it was that easy there wouldn't be any locksmiths ....

FWIW I don't like "cut-away" locks. You can see 'em on YouTube and learn how a basic pin tumbler lock works w/o spending any $$. When you "get to picking", you aren't going to be able to see any pins. Its all about feel and a little bit of sound. If you stay with the hobby, you can literally pick a lock in the dark.

Anyhow - don't get frustrated. Just re-clock a bit. Get some experience under your belt. If you're ready to start working security pins grab a MASTER 140. It has ONE security pin in position 3. Then go to a MASTER 150. Its a 5-pinner with THREE security pins. Both have spools. Work with these until you are proficient. Then move up to something like a small AMERICAN .... There you'll run across serrated pins .... Different animal from spools and can be very challenging at first !!

Another option is to get one of the locks that have been set up with allen screws in the bible so that you can repin at will w/o taking the lock apart. They will come with extra pins. They run about $40 - $50, but at the end of the day you have "endless combinations" of security and standard pin setups. There's a 6 pin and a 7 pin version. Unless you are going to set up challenge locks, just go for the 6-pin version. When you get to the point that you can populate it with 5 or 6 serrated pins and pick it proficiently, you'll be ready to handle most anything that comes down the pike.

Thank you for this detailed and informative reply! I really appreciate it
However, I have some experience (not enough; I'm still a beginner, but not at the starting point). Picked a deadbolt, two Master Lock #3's, a ML # 5, a Master 140, and a lock that has 2 spool pins. I would have thought spool pins would pose more of a challenge then a standard 6 pinned lock but guess not haha.

Fortunately @nite0wl, who had this lock, referred me to his youtube tutorial which, I'm sure if i follow it, it will work.
I just wish that Amazon would have better reviews, because right now, this lock was a kind-of a waste of my money, it is not helping me practice at all.

By the way, if i overset a pin, is there any way to fix it w/o starting over?

[nite0wl]

By the way, if i overset a pin, is there any way to fix it w/o starting over?

On a cutaway lock like this, yes you can fix an overset or stuck pin by reaching through the cutaway side of the chamber to dislodge an overset pin.
Obviously that doesn't work on a normal lock in which case your only options are to try to release tension just enough to let the overset pin drop back to it's resting position (this is very difficult and usually ends up resetting the lock).

[parkourer]

On a cutaway lock like this, yes you can fix an overset or stuck pin by reaching through the cutaway side of the chamber to dislodge an overset pin.

Yeah, I've been thinking about that one for a while and kind-of knew someone was going to mention that. But I've been hesitant to do that because, can't i damage the springs or position of pin in the springs like that? Ive been hesitant to try it because in my experience, if one pin/spring is damaged, the lock isn't the same as before.

[nite0wl]

On a cutaway lock like this, yes you can fix an overset or stuck pin by reaching through the cutaway side of the chamber to dislodge an overset pin.

Yeah, I've been thinking about that one for a while and kind-of knew someone was going to mention that. But I've been hesitant to do that because, can't i damage the springs or position of pin in the springs like that? Ive been hesitant to try it because in my experience, if one pin/spring is damaged, the lock isn't the same as before.

That is true. I don't mean to suggest that you should stick the whole pick into the chamber though, just using the point of the tool to give the pin a nudge is often enough to dislodge a stuck pin and with careful tension control you can even undo an overset.
Luckily on this particular lock the pins just rest on the face of the pin, there is no complex wrapping or anything so slightly shifting the spring won't damage anything as long as you are gentle and don't mess with the coil.

[deolslyfox]

FWIW .... If you can see the overset pin, you'd be better off by just letting off on the tension a bit and letting it drop, then resetting it. Watch the pin and pay attention to how much tension you have to release to get the pin to drop. Watch the other pins as you release tension as well ....

That's what you'll have to do if you overset during a "real pick", and with practice you can do it w/o dropping all the pins .... Sometimes it works, sometimes you'll lose the pick. But, if the only "trick in your bag" is to reset and start over, its surely worth trying, 'cause you KNOW how many pins you're gonna drop when you reset ...

"Nothing beats a try but a failure".