Locks with thumbturn or lock?

[Raymond]

Is anyone else coming across fire dept. inspections that require the store to use keyed cylinders inside and out on glass storefront doors? Thumbturns are no longer allowed.

The explanation given was that a terriorist can come in and lock the doors with the thumbturn and the authorities cant get in. ????

Last year they had to have thumbturns so everyone could get out in case of a fire or other emergency.

[cledry]

Nope, not happening here. I think there is a much greater chance of a fire happening than a terrorist attack.

[Sinifar]

I am seeing more and more going to either paddles ( MS 4510) on store front type door rather than levers, and many corporations are removing all locks on exterior doors and going to panic devices. AS far as MS 1820 / 1850 types it is still thumb turns ONLY. LAHJ so directs.

My experience, your mileage many vary

Sinifar

[globallockytoo]

Is anyone else coming across fire dept. inspections that require the store to use keyed cylinders inside and out on glass storefront doors? Thumbturns are no longer allowed.

The explanation given was that a terriorist can come in and lock the doors with the thumbturn and the authorities cant get in. ????

Last year they had to have thumbturns so everyone could get out in case of a fire or other emergency.

Absolutely not!

It does not matter what the fire inspector says. All jurisdictions in the USA have signed on to the IBC (International Building Code) 2010. if someone tries to tell you otherwise, they are wrong. If an incident were to occur and you were the installer who installed the product as told by the fire inspector, the likelihood of you being sued/charged with negligence is increased.

The fire inspector wont be in the wrong with authorities but you will.

It is not worth it. Life Safety codes are far more important than someone elses "opinion"

[billdeserthills]

I understand some jurisdictions require a sign above those doorways announcing: These Doors Are To Stay Unlocked During Business Hours

[deralian]

Ive never heard of locks required because of terrorists, that's a new one. Panic hardware or a paddlr might be required based on occupancy.

[Snowblind]

That sounds totally asinine. Emergency responders can get through any door by any number of means if they really want to. A door that locks people indoors sounds like a major liability.

What municipality is mandating no thumbturns?

[blue60]

Our area just banned the locks that need a key for both sides. has to do with Fire code IIR, I am just to tired ATM to look it up

[dll932]

I work at a racino. Over the last year I had to convert all my Adams-Rite D/C deadbolts to panic bars, on the order of the building inspector.

[Tyler J. Thomas]

It does not matter what the fire inspector says.

If the fire inspector is the authority having jurisdiction (AHJ) then yes, it does matter what he/she says. His/her state, municipality, etc. might have adopted a publication but he/she has the ultimate authority to interpret and/or make exception/changes. No AHJ is bound, ver batim, by what the IBC, IFC, NFPA, whomever says.

Why else do you think locksmiths are so gung ho about having deviations from code(s) by AHJ's in writing?

Pro tip: liability.

[MatrixBlackRock]

Is anyone else coming across fire dept. inspections that require the store to use keyed cylinders inside and out on glass storefront doors? Thumbturns are no longer allowed.

Sounds like a code violation to me.

Wayne

[Squelchtone]

Is anyone else coming across fire dept. inspections that require the store to use keyed cylinders inside and out on glass storefront doors? Thumbturns are no longer allowed.

Sounds like a code violation to me.

Wayne

If we look at it from common sense perspective and not just looking at safety codes and fire and life safety codes as being the end all be all which I honestly feel the people writing them take themselves way too seriously sometimes... If a liquor store is open for business and their glass door with adams rite swing bolt and keyed mortise cylinders on both sides is unlocked and there's a fire in the store, the worker and customers all run out and everything is fine. So I don't see why its soooo bad to have keyed on both sides doors at a business. When the store closes and the employees go home there's nobody inside and the doors are locked and if some bum breaks a window pane, they still cant open the door easily and have to hop over the door frame in order to get in and out while looting or whatever.

I guess the only reasonable thing I can think of is if a customer got locked in a store by pure accident and there was a fire and they couldnt get out via those front doors that are keyed on both sides. Is that what the rules are protecting? the one dumb shmuch who gets locked in a store after hours? I just dont see the rules forbidding keyed on both sides cylinders on doors being useful during normal operating hours.

Thoughts?
Squelchtone

[Tyler J. Thomas]

So I don't see why its soooo bad to have keyed on both sides doors at a business.

It is allowed by the IBC (2012 Edition) under Section 1008.1.9.3. It is restricted to certain occupancy groups and there are requirements that must be satisfied in order to do so.

It is also allowed in NFPA 101 (2012 Edition) under Section 7.2.1.5.5 but, like the IBC, occupancy classifications ultimately determine if it's able to be used and under what circumstances.

To further complicate matters, each jurisdiction can revise or add to existing adopted codes. My home state has a 100+ page document of revisions/addendums to adopted codes - it's right next to all my code books on the shelf behind my desk. On top of that, their interpretation is at the behest of a/the authority having jurisdiction (AHJ) which is usually a fire marshal, an inspector with a city fire department, etc.

Life safety codes are never a cut and dry affair, unfortunately.

[Squelchtone]

So I don't see why its soooo bad to have keyed on both sides doors at a business.

It is allowed by the IBC (2012 Edition) under Section 1008.1.9.3. It is restricted to certain occupancy groups and there are requirements that must be satisfied in order to do so.

It is also allowed in NFPA 101 (2012 Edition) under Section 7.2.1.5.5 but, like the IBC, occupancy classifications ultimately determine if it's able to be used and under what circumstances.

To further complicate matters, each jurisdiction can revise or add to existing adopted codes. My home state has a 100+ page document of revisions/addendums to adopted codes - it's right next to all my code books on the shelf behind my desk. On top of that, their interpretation is at the behest of a/the authority having jurisdiction (AHJ) which is usually a fire marshal, an inspector with a city fire department, etc.

Life safety codes are never a cut and dry affair, unfortunately.

Thanks for that info! All those extra revisions and addendums remind me of a time when I was installing phone and data wiring at a retail store and the particular cities City Hall made me pull a permit for running Cat-5 data which had never happened anywhere else before, and then they gave me grief about the 2 phone lines going to the alarm panel only being POTS lines, couldnt have 1 POTS and 1 PBX line and neither line could be used for anything else like a credit card machine or office fax machine. I get where they're coming from, but yikes, image being the business owner and paying Verizon for 2 business POTS lines per month just for the fire/burg alarm. That's about $100 a month. and then you also have to get another line or 2 for the credit card and fax machine (yep, people still use them and not internet based alternatives)

Thanks for all those details, much appreciated!
Squelchtone

[Tyler J. Thomas]

Thanks for that info! All those extra revisions and addendums remind me of a time when I was installing phone and data wiring at a retail store and the particular cities City Hall made me pull a permit for running Cat-5 data which had never happened anywhere else before, and then they gave me grief about the 2 phone lines going to the alarm panel only being POTS lines, couldnt have 1 POTS and 1 PBX line and neither line could be used for anything else like a credit card machine or office fax machine. I get where they're coming from, but yikes, image being the business owner and paying Verizon for 2 business POTS lines per month just for the fire/burg alarm. That's about $100 a month. and then you also have to get another line or 2 for the credit card and fax machine (yep, people still use them and not internet based alternatives)

Thanks for all those details, much appreciated!
Squelchtone

No worries. I wish this forum would be more active because life safety is my bread and butter.