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unknown chubb safe

Forgot how to dial the combination on that old safe? Think you got the right numbers but the handle is stuck? What safe should you buy? Ask your safe questions here!
Forum rules
You are posting this in This Old Safe, a public area of the forum.

Safe manipulation discussion is allowed, but safe drilling or other destructive entry is only allowed in the Advanced - Safes and Safe Locks area.

If you are a guest of the forum and have a safe you need to open, but you do not have the combination, we cannot tell you how or where to drill it.

Re: unknown chubb safe

Postby williamjcoates » 5 Apr 2015 17:01

Hi all,
Just finished working with the safe dial to see what observations I could make.
1) The dial does not press in when turned to 0.
2) I also noted that the nose of the lever made contact with the drive cam gate at approximately 9 - 13 on the dial.
3) I don't have a good listening device and relied on touch which seemed to be more accurate anyway. I tried counting the wheels and noted the increased friction of the wheel pack as it passed 50 on the dial. It actually felt like the fiction increased four times leading me to think there could be four wheels. Not the most exact method I am sure but I will definitely run through this exercise a few more times to try and get a better reading.
I assume that because the dial didn't depress at zero that it is not a 8500?
Any ideas on what is could be then? a 6730 with four wheels?
Bill
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Re: unknown chubb safe

Postby Squelchtone » 5 Apr 2015 18:32

That dial is not used with 6700 series locks, I'm 99% sure of that. As far as picking up wheels and seeing if there is 3 or 4, its so hard to help you with this without actually putting my hand on the dial.

Either way, if it is 3 or 4 wheels, what would you do with that info or if you knew the model number for sure? You'll either need to have this safe drilled or a safe cracker come in and manipulate it open if he can feel a contact area, which is seems that you may be feeling.

Are you hoping to spend the next couple months learning safe manipulation? If you are its best to get a safe lock no a stand and learn exactly how they work and manipulate the practice lock open, then go to the real safe and try your luck.

Did you try dialing test combinations, and did you watch that youtube video to see exactly how to press the dial to see if it presses in at 0?

also, contact torontosafecracker maybe he is close enough to you to drive out for a reasonable fee to at least give you more info, spin the dial for a minute or two and give you a quote from there.

good luck,
Squelchtone
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Re: unknown chubb safe

Postby williamjcoates » 5 Apr 2015 19:03

Hi Squelchtone,
Thanks for the reply. I was hoping to determine the model number and determine whether the lock can be manipulated or not. a difference of 3 or four wheels makes a big difference when graphing. I happen to have a S&G 6700 mounted on a board http://imgur.com/Wo6nAYu which I have been using to practice on and also learn more about the characteristics of this type of lock. I know it is an uphill battle for me but I am still willing to take the time to figure it out. I tried dialing a couple of the test combinations and will try the others I have this week. Watched the video you posted and tried a couple of times to press in the dial but no go. I'll also try contacting Torontosafecarker to see where he is at. :D
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Re: unknown chubb safe

Postby Squelchtone » 5 Apr 2015 19:26

ahh well why didnt you tell us you were a budding dial spinner?! =)

So I looked into it and yes, you can get a 6700 series with a R162 dial ring and the type of dial you have on your safe. http://www.sargentandgreenleaf.com/MC-dialsNrings.php

If you sense contact points then I believe that's a Group 2 lock because as far as I know you would not feel contact points on a Group 1 lock (anyone care to correct this? I'm all ears)

So yeah, you could probably manipulate this, the easiest thing to do is graph All Wheels Left and check every 2.5 numbers, going back to the 9 to 13 area each time and seeing if that area shrinks to like 9.25 or 12.75 or something that drastic. Once you check all 40 places around the dial and make a complete graph, you can then possibly see the 3rd wheel's gate which is the most common to see first on a 6700 Series lock. That number alone could give us clues.. if it happens to be 25, or 50, or 75 or 20, or 40, or 60, I'd try some known factory combinations, if you graph and something like 71 comes up as a very obvious gate, then the combination is probably not an easy factory sequence such as 25-50-75

To count the wheels, pick up all wheels left (at least 4 or 5 full revolutions) and stop on 60, then reverse direction, ignore that bump at 13 and at 9, and go quickly over 60 again, listen for the "ting" or feel the additional resistance when the wheel picks up, then go around again and again passing 60 quickly until you stop feeling additional resistance getting added at 60 or dont hear any more metal on metal "tings"

happy spinning,
Squelchtone
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Re: unknown chubb safe

Postby williamjcoates » 5 Apr 2015 20:02

Ha ha, Sorry....Ya I am a budding dial spinner......still in bud......I have a book "The National Locksmith Guide To Manipulation" by Robert Gene Sieveking which is a great read. I definitely feel the contact points which occur in the same location as my practice 6700 S&G. Leads me to believe that the lever is the same length as the 6700 series. I think if the lever was longer as in some models the contact points would fall between 93 - 97. Of course I could be blowing smoke here. I would hope that it is the 6700 series of lock but then I would wonder why a group 2 style of lock was used on such a tough ass looking safe. I have seen pics of this same style safe which I have posted here with a brass dial and a time lock inside....Obviously group 1 style security. Guess that's why I am a budding dial spinner still in bud. Researching this stuff makes My brain spin...lol
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Re: unknown chubb safe

Postby williamjcoates » 6 Apr 2015 17:13

Hi All,
Just wanted to confirm that this lock does have 4 wheels. And there is no question that the dial does not push in when parked at 0. Also definitely feel the cam gate between 6 - 12.
Bill
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Re: unknown chubb safe

Postby Squelchtone » 6 Apr 2015 17:43

williamjcoates wrote:Hi All,
Just wanted to confirm that this lock does have 4 wheels. And there is no question that the dial does not push in when parked at 0. Also definitely feel the cam gate between 6 - 12.
Bill


You're in for a treat. If it's 4 numbers then it might be a 6731.

Get the last number using AWL and hi-lo tests and let us know what that is, maybe we can derive a combination based on it. do you know about/or how to pick up all the wheels, then return to the drop in (6-12 on your safe) and note the subtle differences?

In the mean time.. it's worth trying these test/factory combinations
20-40-60-80
10-20-30-40
40-50-60-70
15-30-45-60

The dialing order is 5R, 4L, 3R, 2L, Right to drop in and dial fully stops/bolt retracts.

check you're PM, I'm going to send you something.
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Re: unknown chubb safe

Postby williamjcoates » 6 Apr 2015 18:00

Squelchtone wrote:
You're in for a treat. If it's 4 numbers then it might be a 6731.

Get the last number using AWL and hi-lo tests and let us know what that is, maybe we can derive a combination based on it. do you know about/or how to pick up all the wheels, then return to the drop in (6-12 on your safe) and note the subtle differences?

In the mean time.. it's worth trying these test/factory combinations
20-40-60-80
10-20-30-40
40-50-60-70
15-30-45-60

The dialing order is 5R, 4L, 3R, 2L, Right to drop in and dial fully stops/bolt retracts.

check you're PM, I'm going to send you something.
Squelchtone

Hi Squelchtone,
Ya I do know how to pick up the wheels and have a good understanding on how to obtain and graph my results. Once I start working on it I will be definitely posting my results on here. Will need all the help I can get on this one. I will start out with the combos you suggested..you never know. I also did some measuring. I heard that if the the center of the handle to the center of the dial was greater than 4 1/2" than it would be a vault lock. Well the measurement of mine is actually 5 3/4" from the center of the handle to the center of the dial.
Also noted that the thickness of the door to the door jamb on the top of the door was 3 1/2'
The thickness of the opening side of the door to the top of one of the lock bolts was 4 1/2". (I slide a thin piece of cardboard in to do this test)
Bill
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Re: unknown chubb safe

Postby williamjcoates » 8 Apr 2015 21:36

I tried all the combos you gave me Squelchtone, but no dice. Decided to try some manipulation instead. I did one graph dialing AWL. I have uploaded a pic of the graph so you can see my first attempts. I noticed four points of interest.
http://i.imgur.com/TnremBj.jpg

And believe there could be possible gates at
3 - 45 - 63 - 75
Now I know that they all couldn't possibly be gates but maybe flat spots with one or two possible gates. I will have to figure out the isolation part of each wheel and see what I can come up with. But it is a start..
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Re: unknown chubb safe

Postby williamjcoates » 11 Apr 2015 22:27

Hi all,
Just wanted to update on how the manipulation is going and hopefully get some feed back on the results.
I did four graphs tonight. all of them were AWL. On the last graph I zoomed in on 3 hot spots and graphed every point instead of using the normal 2.5 spacing. these points were 40 - 50, 55 - 65 and 70 - 80
http://i.imgur.com/bgCuFfv.jpg

I was having a hard time picking up the LCP as it was so soft. but now I believe the contact point range to be from 4.75 to 13 which is a bit wider than what I previously thought. I am inclined to believe that there is a gate at 73 - 76 and a possible gate at 60 - 65.

Hope you spinners out there will have a good look and let me know what ya think :D
Last edited by Squelchtone on 11 Apr 2015 22:47, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: changed [IMG] tags to [URL] links, 800x600 is largest we like to see displayed in line, 3000x2500 is too large for most folks monitors.
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Re: unknown chubb safe

Postby Nitrous » 7 Jul 2015 15:37

Depending on where the safe was located when in service, would it be worth using trying to restrict the trial combinations to something like birthdays/anniversaries? That format of day/month/year( ie XX/YY/ZZ) in Canada or month/day/year in the USA severely limits the possible combinations. Coupled with some of the other limitations for that lock (last number not falling within the range of ??) might make opening possible.

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Re: unknown chubb safe

Postby williamjcoates » 18 Jul 2015 12:10

Hi nitrous,
I will keep that in mind. I am now working on graphing each wheel separately, while parking the other three on 0. Also only moving only 1 number at a time instead of 2.5. Very time consuming but I should get a better picture of possible gates and low spots.
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