which way do i tension my medeco?

[cheerIO]

never be afraid to ask a question, the only stupid question is the one not asked, but on an internet forum, a stupid question is the one not thoroughly researched before it was asked. GOOGLE IS YOUR FRIEND.

Amen. Honestly a lot of people here lately are taking the approach, "ask first, look it up never."

I don't mean to be negative either, but man, I spent months and months reading this forum till I built up the base to actually open an account and post. Even today, I exhaustively research so I hopefully don't ask a question that has been answered before.

Most times, if you don't get a good answer, it's the forum's way of letting you know you should have used the "Search" function.

[BSG_314159]

So I don't know if anyone actually answered the question... but if you tension it counterclockwise it engages the sidebar before the pins. So if you want to rotate the pins first go counterclockwise and if you want to move to sheer line first then rotate then go clockwise.




This is a paragraph from open in Thirty Seconds.
SETTING THE SIDE BAR CODE

Page 197
12_6.5 application of torque.
Torque must be applied to the plug in a counter clockwise direction in order to engage the side bar against each pin. This is the same procedure wetter the sidebar code is being set for app pins at once or individually. When the sidebar is under tension it causes pressure to be applied against each pin. Pins will react differently when they are aligned and when they are not. The challenge is to learn the change in feeling for each side.


Here is another quote from the book


this is the process of rotating each bottom pin to its alignment position and enables the side bar to retract into the plug. The code is set prior to bumping or picking in order to neutralize the effect of the blocking action of the sidebar legs against each tumbler.


Have fun

[nite0wl]

The Everest is not as difficult as any of the axial-rotation Medeco designs, it is simply a high quality commercial schlage cylinder with an added check-pin on one side.
The Primus and Primus XP are in the same range as the high-security Medeco designs. Both include sidebars controlled by setting pins in multiple dimensions, and generally have very tight tolerances.

[south town ninja]

Thanks all, i have started reading some old medeco posts.

[south town ninja]

ok, so i've looked thru the internet high and low, and i can't find an answer to this:i made a groove grabber to help me set the sidebar, then i found out groove grabbers don't work on ARX pins (milled). so i set about trying to turn the pins to the correct angle with a pick (also a slender gem, much like you have, except it is .018). the problem i have is this: I can't figure out what feeling i am looking for when turning the pin to determine what angle is appropriate/ when the pin is sidebar-set. I am going off of memory, and that just isn't any good. please help, and you'r gonna just say something mean, please just don't comment (i don't wish to engage in controversy). I have googled it, i have all kinds of answers, they are just answers to questions that i'm not asking at the moment. please be positive, all.

[cheerIO]

ok, so i've looked thru the internet high and low, and i can't find an answer to this:i made a groove grabber to help me set the sidebar, then i found out groove grabbers don't work on ARX pins (milled). so i set about trying to turn the pins to the correct angle with a pick (also a slender gem, much like you have, except it is .018). the problem i have is this: I can't figure out what feeling i am looking for when turning the pin to determine what angle is appropriate/ when the pin is sidebar-set. I am going off of memory, and that just isn't any good. please help, and you'r gonna just say something mean, please just don't comment (i don't wish to engage in controversy). I have googled it, i have all kinds of answers, they are just answers to questions that i'm not asking at the moment. please be positive, all.

This is why you start with one pin and move your way up.

[GWiens2001]

Agree with CheerIO about progressive pinning.

As for the feel - responded in a PM.

Gordon

[south town ninja]

yeah, i was working on 4 pin stacks with a groove grabber, but once i found out that I can't use a groove grabber for ARX pins, i decided to start over and I'm currently on 1 pin stack. I can get the lock to open, but i don't want to move up to two pin stacks until I feel i'm setting the sidebar by feel. Is this a mistake, you think? And gordon, i didn't receive a pm yet. maybe it takes a few minutes? And thanks for the positive responses and for taking the time to respond at all.

[nite0wl]

Keep in mind a few things:
1. rotating the pin doesn't do you any good until the sidebar is binding
2. If your lock does in fact have ARX pins, ARX pins can only be set to the sidebar when they are at both the correct rotation and height

I think that is as far as I can go on this point without falling foul of the Advanced topics rules.

[cheerIO]

I'm currently on 1 pin stack. I can get the lock to open, but i don't want to move up to two pin stacks until I feel i'm setting the sidebar by feel. Is this a mistake, you think?

This is absolutely the way to go about it. This is learning how to pick locks. You will develop feeling. But slow down. It takes a while and no one will be able to tell you what feeling you are going to be looking for.

yeah, i was working on 4 pin stacks with a groove grabber, but once i found out that I can't use a groove grabber for ARX pins, i decided to start over and I'm currently on 1 pin stack.

Your comments like these are the ones that I think are concerning people.

Have you taken apart the lock?
Do you know exactly how the lock works?
Do you know the premise of the groove grabber?

If you understand all of these things totally, you wouldn't have to "find out" that a groove grabber is not optimal for the job. If you take apart your lock, and completely understand the mechanism, you will see that the grooves that the grabber is supposed to fit into do not travel all the way to the bottom of the pins. So on that lock the grooves cannot be grabbed.

Not to say that you "can't" use a groove grabber type tool to still rotate the pins. Anything that will rotate the pins will do. But again, you would understand this with knowledge of the mechanism.

I think people are being short with you because you seem to be coming off as rushing with out completely understanding what is going on. Picking locks takes time and patience. We are here to help, but can't just magically give you tips to make you a better lock picker. Learn the fundamentals and everything will come, maybe not as fast as you want. But if you understand the basics of how the locks work, you can usually figure out the rest.

Have fun and don't get frustrated. Even though everybody and their mother says that picking a Medeco is easy as pie, for most people I think the theory is easy, putting it into practice still takes a lot of practice.

[MBI]

2. If your lock does in fact have ARX pins, ARX pins can only be set to the sidebar when they are at both the correct rotation and height.

Sometimes yes, sometimes no.

With the regular milled-groove ARX pins, the groove is closed at the bottom but not the top. Those can be rotated to set the sidebar before they're lifted, just like regular pins.

There is a less common version of ARX pins called "micro milled" which has the sidebar groove closed at BOTH the top and bottom of the groove. With those you might need to lift them a bit before you can set the sidebar (depending on what pin length it is as you may not need to lift a #6 pin, and they don't make micro-milled in size #1 and #2). The margin of error can be somewhat wide on how high you need to lift it. It doesn't have to be exactly at the correct height, just lifted a little bit to get the closed top end of the groove above the leg of the sidebar.

In order to defeat Medecoders and decoders which exploit the sidebar groove in the pins, only the bottom of the groove needs to be closed. The main reason they added micro-milled pins in addition to the milled pins is to help further randomize pin weights to prevent the use of an ultrasonic decoder which can determine the weight of the pins to decode the lock. Micro-milled pins also can't be used in pin stacks with master pins. Because of this, the micro-milled pins with the groove closed at both the top and bottom aren't as common as the milled pins with the groove closed at only the bottom.

[south town ninja]

thanks you guys. Im gonna take this info and run with it. I think i might have enough info to proceed in good faith. I have taken a medeco apart, however i was unable to put it back together again. I almost did, but then i lost a sidebar spring and consequently haven't taken apart the new one i bought as a result. I agree that I need practice, but now i feel i have just enough information to proceed without having to re-invent the wheel. So, I'm gonna practice practice practice, and i'll report back in a week or so, maybe a couple days if i make substantial progress. Feel free to keep this thread going tho, information is a great thing to share. Again Thanks all!

[UnlockingBoredom]

STN, how far is Bend from Salem? I will be moving up that way some time this year..

[south town ninja]

STN, how far is Bend from Salem? I will be moving up that way some time this year..

Oh, sweet! it's 132 miles according to google maps. It's a nice drive too. It would be really cool to have some lock pickers to talk to in person. I'd like to start a lock picking club. Not that I'm advanced enough to be teaching this stuff, i juts think it would be nice to have a local place where we can exchange ideas and stuff in person, and maybe teach each other what we've learned, 1st hand. We will definitely have to exchange info.

[nite0wl]

2. If your lock does in fact have ARX pins, ARX pins can only be set to the sidebar when they are at both the correct rotation and height.

Sometimes yes, sometimes no.

With the regular milled-groove ARX pins, the groove is closed at the bottom but not the top. Those can be rotated to set the sidebar before they're lifted, just like regular pins.

There is a less common version of ARX pins called "micro milled" which has the sidebar groove closed at BOTH the top and bottom of the groove. With those you might need to lift them a bit before you can set the sidebar (depending on what pin length it is as you may not need to lift a #6 pin, and they don't make micro-milled in size #1 and #2). The margin of error can be somewhat wide on how high you need to lift it. It doesn't have to be exactly at the correct height, just lifted a little bit to get the closed top end of the groove above the leg of the sidebar.

In order to defeat Medecoders and decoders which exploit the sidebar groove in the pins, only the bottom of the groove needs to be closed. The main reason they added micro-milled pins in addition to the milled pins is to help further randomize pin weights to prevent the use of an ultrasonic decoder which can determine the weight of the pins to decode the lock. Micro-milled pins also can't be used in pin stacks with master pins. Because of this, the micro-milled pins with the groove closed at both the top and bottom aren't as common as the milled pins with the groove closed at only the bottom.

Interesting. None of my Medecos (so far) have had ARX pins of either type so I was going off of Open In Thirty Seconds which seemed to indicate that the "micro milled" pins were the only type of ARX pins.