Help with old built-in safe

[crosstalk]

Hello. Can anyone identify this safe? It's built-in to the wall of a house I bought. The name plate appears to have been painted over many times.

[Squelchtone]

It's a Mosler wall safe from the early 1950's, that painted over plate is the serial number. Your dial is missing the Mosler medallion/coin normally found in the center of the dial.



here's what the door looks like when open:


look around that room/closet for the combination being written somewhere in pencil.. humans are predictable like that

here's the dialing sequence for that lock:
4 times left to the First number,
3 times right to the second number,
2 times left to the third number,
1 time right until the dial stops - open door.

a guy named Andy at all.experts.com has several posts about these wall safes, this is worth a read: http://en.allexperts.com/q/Locksmithing ... t-wall.htm

hope this helps,
Squelchtone

[kwoswalt99-]

It took a little bit of doing, but I was able to see the picture. Oh, I didn't realize squelchtone already identified it. The dial kinda looks S&G to me.

[tomasfuk]

here's the dialing sequence for that lock:
4 times left to the First number,
3 times right to the second number,
2 times left to the third number,
1 time right until the dial stops - open door.

I don't like such simplified instructions - the unexperienced user stays in doubt what it exactly means.
Some explanation like "Do not count the revolutions of the dial, count the individual number as it arrives at the 12 o'clock index mark." should be added.

I use another, different instructions:
- turn 3 times (complete revolutions) to the left, then continue to the first number
- turn 2 times to the right, continue to the second number
- turn 1 time to the left, continue to the first number
- turn right until the dial stops
what seems to be easier to follow to me, as the 1 (2, 3) complete revolution(s) is easy to do even without carefully looking at the dial scale.

[Squelchtone]

here's the dialing sequence for that lock:
4 times left to the First number,
3 times right to the second number,
2 times left to the third number,
1 time right until the dial stops - open door.

I don't like such simplified instructions - the unexperienced user stays in doubt what it exactly means.
Some explanation like "Do not count the revolutions of the dial, count the individual number as it arrives at the 12 o'clock index mark." should be added.

I use different instructions:
- turn 3 times (complete revolutions) to the left, continue to the first number
- turn 2 times to the right, continue to the second number
- turn 1 time to the left, continue to the first number
- turn right until the dial stops
what seems to be easier to follow to me, as the 1 (2, 3) complete revolution(s) is easy to do even without carefully looking at the dial scale.

No offense, but I find your version even more confusing and frankly not much more detailed than what I posted. The instructions I put in my post are copied from the post on all.experts.com

Since the OP hasn't mentioned if he even has the combo, I just included the basics, no need to do a fully detailed explanation at this point.

if you want to nit pick and get very specific, a much better instruction is something like this:

If the combination is 25-50-75

turn the dial Left (counter-clockwise) passing 25 under the opening index three times and stopping on 25 the fourth time around.
turn the dial Right (clockwise) passing 50 under the opening index two times and stopping on 50 the third time around.
turn the dial Left (counter-clockwise) passing 75 under the opening index one time and stopping on 75 the second time around.
turn the dial Right until the dial stops, the bolt is retracted at this point and the door can be pulled open.

Squelchtone

[tomasfuk]

No offense, but I find your version even more confusing and frankly not much more detailed than what I posted.
if you want to nit pick and get very specific, a much better instruction is something like this:...

No, offense, but my version contains all information needed, I see no space for doubts there. Maybe if you read it once again, you'll see its elegance

And sure, the instruction set from S&G manual is comprehensive, but has too many words in it

[1mrchristopher]

No, offense, but my version contains all information needed, I see no space for doubts there. Maybe if you read it once again, you'll see its elegance

And sure, the instruction set from S&G manual is comprehensive, but has too many words in it

I myself read it several times, and must agree with Squelchtone. Reality IS subjective however, and what makes the most sense to you may not be as clear to others.

[crosstalk]

Thank you for your help identifying the safe and the lock. Now I just need to get it open...

[kwoswalt99-]

If you are a homeowner without any experience in safes, the easiest method would be to pull out your wallet and hire a locksmith. If you don't care about the safe, you could do it destructively, but that can't be talked about here. Or, if time isn't important, and you have patience, you could learn how to manipulate it, but that can't be talked about here either. The last option would probably take too long.

[cledry]

Squelchtone posted industry standard accepted dialing instructions. They are the accepted standard because they are not confusing.

[tomasfuk]

...industry standard accepted dialing instructions...

As we spoke about instructions for unexperienced user, not for a professional, give me a link to any user manual which conntains them please.
Neither LaGard nor SG is such case.

[Squelchtone]

...industry standard accepted dialing instructions...

As we spoke about instructions for unexperienced user, not for a professional, give me a link to any user manual which conntains them please.
Neither LaGard nor SG is such case.

Not sure if this is what you're looking for, but page 4 of the PDF file (page 2 of the scanned document) http://www.sargentandgreenleaf.com/pdf/ ... _locks.pdf
has this:

1. Turn the dial left until the first number of the combination
( ) aligns with the opening index the fourth time.

2. Turn the dial right until the second number of the combination
( ) aligns with the opening index the third time.

3. Turn the dial left until the third number of the combination
( ) aligns with the opening index the second time.

4. Turn the dial right until it stops, at approximately 95. If the dial
does not stop, carefully repeat the entire opening procedure.
Remember to dial exactly to the number of the combination
with which you are working. Dialing even a small amount past
a number you meant to stop on will cause the lock to remain
locked. This is part of the mechanism’s security.


the ( ) is meant to be a place holder for a number to be written in with pen, example: ( 25 )
Squelchtone


PS. here is the actual Operating Instructions that are included with each lock S&G sells: http://www.sargentandgreenleaf.com/pdf/ ... 3wheel.pdf I like the diagrams with arrows.

[kwoswalt99-]

Maybe this is helpful? http://fiswg.research.ucf.edu/Documents/PDF/Mosler%20302%20Operating%20Instructions.pdf

[tomasfuk]

My dears,
thank you for linking to the detailed dialing instructions or posting them here.
I know that all but it is convenient to have the information collected in one place.
But this is not what I was speaking about. My concern is the extremely simplified instruction set.
Let me explain my thoughts in deep.

Unexperienced users are ingenious in finding ways how to fulfill the instructions in a wrong way.
When such person reads "press any key to continue", he presses Ctrl-Alt-Del, NumLock, Cursor Right, Esc...
For all of you it's clear what to do if you read "4 times left to the first number". You are experienced users which don't need detailed instructions.
I see three ways how an unexperienced user can fulfill this simple instruction :
1) most obvious for him will be to turn the dial knob four times to the left by 360º and after that to continue rotating the knob until the first number reaches the opening index.
In the first step the excessive one rotation doesn't mind, but in the second and third steps it does. This is why in the SG instruction manual you can find the sentences "Do not count turns. Count how many times each number is aligned with the opening index (at the 12 o’clock position)". SG has long experience with unexperienced users.
2) second possible way is to turn the dial knob left until the first number reaches the opening index, stop there and rotate the dial back to 0. And do it four times For a person which remembers the rotating dial of telephone it's quite obvious.
3) the third way is the correct one (not necessary to describe it in detail here).

Thus, this is why I have initiated this discussion. If it bored or offended anybody, I apologize - it was not my intention.

[cledry]

L - 4 times ( )
R - 3 times ( )
L - 2 times ( )
R - to stop

That is how it is printed on a business card I give my customers. I explain it and run through the combination once while they watch. I then have them run it twice while I watch.

I explain it thus. Go left 4 times until you reach the first number, then right past your second number 2 times and stop on the 3rd time etc...

I rarely have anyone who cannot follow this instruction. The common mistakes I see are thinking they have to start at zero. Not looking at the dial straight on. Whipping the dial to a stop.

If anyone has trouble I show a few tricks such as using your thumb as a friction brake on the dial to prevent going past the numbers.