Depth keys (didnt know where to put this one)

[UnlockingBoredom]

I need to get a set of BEST depth keys for making keys with the little key machine but I need to ask 2 questions..

1. can I get any SFIC Best depth key and use it for any Best keys I would be making since it looks like they are all the same length and height?

2. All the BEST depth keys I see on eBay are 6 pin, Can I duplicate it onto another key and then back up the original key 1 space and cut the 7th space?

Thanks for any help and sorry I didnt know where to put this one.. Its not picking, bumping, impressioning etc..

[blue60]

I need to get a set of BEST depth keys for making keys with the little key machine but I need to ask 2 questions..

1. can I get any SFIC Best depth key and use it for any Best keys I would be making since it looks like they are all the same length and height?

2. All the BEST depth keys I see on eBay are 6 pin, Can I duplicate it onto another key and then back up the original key 1 space and cut the 7th space?

Thanks for any help and sorry I didnt know where to put this one.. Its not picking, bumping, impressioning etc..

1. yeah but you need more then 1 set, (1 set for A2, another for A3 ect...)

2. I guess you can but remember SFIC keys are cut from tip to bow. also it would be very hard to accurately to move key back one space to cut the 7th cut.

hope this helps

[averagejoe]

Well, you could get a set of 7 pin D&S keys. There are some of us with the technology to make them

As blue60 said, moving the key back EXACTLY 1 space is going to be very difficult. Even a little bit off and the key will be ruined. And since they are spaced from the tip of the key (the flat under the point to be precise) making them on a normal key machine can be a pain.

[Squelchtone]

[Moved to Key Machines & Programmers, since it's to do with cutting keys, close enough =)]

[MatrixBlackRock]

1. can I get any SFIC Best depth key and use it for any Best keys I would be making since it looks like they are all the same length and height?

First let me start by saying if you are trying to duplicate keys you need to be duplicating from a punched key, a duplicate of a duplicate is seldom accurate enough for a Best core.

As for using a depth key of one section to cut a key of another section, good luck, even with a multi-way jaw different Best sections tend to clamp up just enough off to make doing that a tough nut to crack, plan of wasting a few blanks, no make that plan of wasting a lot of blanks.

2. All the BEST depth keys I see on eBay are 6 pin, Can I duplicate it onto another key and then back up the original key 1 space and cut the 7th space?

My suggestion is, keep on looking for a 7 pin punched depth set of the section you need, you can always use it for 6 pins too. While I don't know what section you need CLK has them for the most common section (A), you might want to contact them and see if they can supply you with other sections.

http://www.clksupplies.com/shop/best-be ... -p-63.html

Thanks for any help and sorry I didnt know where to put this one.. Its not picking, bumping, impressioning etc..

Two thoughts, do you have a way of tip gauging your master or depth key and the blank, with Best you need to be able to tip gauge the keys within a C hair if you want a duplicate to work smoothly and or have you successfully duplicated any Best keys with your machine?

Wayne

[UnlockingBoredom]

Ok, I think you guys have answered my questions and one that I didnt ask but was wondering about.... My little Micro key machine is not going to work for Best keys since I dont have a tip stop on it. It will be great for duplicating the keys I impression so I have 2 keys per lock.

I will at some point get a better key machine, maybe I will be able to find someone who likes to trade.. Anyone have a nice key machine they want to get rid of and want a diamond ring or silver bars?

[cledry]

You do have a tip stop, it is called the wheel and the copy dog. However that machine is generally not good for cutting Best keys but will work in a pinch.

[MatrixBlackRock]

My little Micro key machine is not going to work for Best keys since I dont have a tip stop on it. It will be great for duplicating the keys I impression so I have 2 keys per lock.

Don't give up yet, this is how HPC solved that problem on their entry level key cutter, maybe something like this it can be adapted to your machine.

The tip gauge on the left is an ST-4 for tip gauging standard keys and the one on the right is a BT-4 designed to tip gauge a Best key using the notch just under the tip.





http://www.matrixblackrock.com/Assets/BT-12r

[MatrixBlackRock]

Oops didn't post the last photo correctly.



Wayne

[Sinifar]

As a former Best contractor, you are on a fools mission. Best keys are just not fussy but need to be cut EXACTLY on the money. The reason is the extreme close tolerances in the core. Any sloppy key cutting will not work with these units.

The reason is the .0125 between cuts. Yes it is that close with the A-2 usually encountered scheme. There is also A-4 which is a double step scheme, and of course A-3 which has been discontinued. A-3 was dropped because it could interchange with A-2 if you "jiggled" the key. Trust me Best made this decision, not my opinion.

All Best keys are .150 spacing and it must be exact again. All Best keys use the same "0" cut. The pins for "0" are the same in every scheme. It is reference point. A-2 drops .0125, A-4 drops .021. A-2 has cuts 0 - 9 and A-4 has 0 - 5. You follow the usual pattern of two step in doing the key work with A-2, that is your cuts should run 0 - 2 - 4 - 6 - 8 / or 1 - 3 - 5 - 9 / In the same pin chamber. A-4 is a double step already so it makes no difference if you go 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 in the same pin chamber. MACS for A-2 is 9, A-4 is 5. Yes I have punched a key 0 - 9 - 0 - 9 - 0 - 9, and it works like glass, and there is enough pin land for the pin to sit fully on it.

Back in the 60's and earlier, there were 5 pin cores, and six was considered "extra". Today everything is either 6 pin, or mainly 7 pin.

Key sections can be a problem, as many will flip in vises, which is why again any distortion of the exact presentation of the blank to the cutter will make the key off. This is why all Best keys made by the factory, or the reps, like Best of Wisconsin were made on what today would be the Green Monster punches. A-1's Pak a Punch also makes good keys and again, all keys are punched as originals only.

I have made Arrow Flex keys on the Framon 2, but again I do have the special jaws to take the oversized keys and it automatically spaces for the correct insertion, and will work with the Best "W" keys as well, which won't sit in the Pak a Punch. Here Framon works with the micrometer dials, so the cuts are super exact.

Trying to make these off depth keys is not going to work, which is why most suppliers like HPC do not offer them anymore. Some smiths could punch you a depth key set, but again, I caution you that unless you are VERY EXACT the keys will not work.

Pining cores requires the special Best pins, as they are smaller than regular .115 pins. ALSO you cannot take the core apart and file the shear line to "make it work" -- this is because the cores has to work two shearlines. The operating and the control.

To make controls work you need to know how to "do the math" and then load the core blind, and the put in the springs and caps. Once finished, it only then that you will know if you did the whole process correctly and everything works like glass, super smooth, and if not, it is back to square one.

Best is a specialty lock, and most smiths around here bring their Best work over here and have me do it as a subcontractor, which I am delighted to do, and no I do not charge up the ----- for it, It goes out at the wholesale price, so the smith can make some cash on the job as well.

Hope this helps, and good luck! You are going to need it!

Sinifar

[UnlockingBoredom]

Yeah, I do try to do things that are out of the norm most times
The way my mind works I have to try things to keep it entertained

I like being told that something is impossible or very improbable to do as it makes me want to at least try and have fun failing if that is the outcome. When I was in electronics, I was told that it was impossible to reverse engineer a servo writer that a company put over $100,000 into R&D and building it. It took me 2 weeks to make 12 of them for the company I was working for (for a whopping cost of... $135.00 in parts and old SCSI circuit boards) The guy came back a week later to see how his servo writer was working for us and got a bit upset that I had 12 others working just as good as his... I had told him when he made the statement that I couldnt do it that he should scratch off the numbers on his microprocessor and blow the security fuse on the PAL so I count copy it

I have more time then anything else and I like to experiment with things to figure out how they work and how to make something that will work with them. I believe you with what you said about Best and their tolerances so I will most likely just screw up a few blanks before I give up...

On a side note..
I know a guy that is selling a Framon code machine in very good condition for around $950 or so and a pack a punch that can do Schlage, Kwickset and SFIC's for $550.00 if those are good prices? I was thinking of picking something up for my nephew who is a locksmith for a wedding present as he is getting married in a couple weeks. I will have to sell some things to come up with the money but I love my nephew and think he is worth it.

[MatrixBlackRock]

I like being told that something is impossible or very improbable to do as it makes me want to at least try and have fun failing if that is the outcome.

It's not impossible, it's just not as easy as copying a key.

For example using the pinning chart below I first had to cut everything to 5, then the two 6 cuts, followed by the 7 and 9 cuts, the resulting key is ugly, look at the hand work between 3 and 4, but it works properly.









Wayne

[UnlockingBoredom]

Wayne, other then the little hickup on cut 3 it looks like a good key to me!

[metroid9824]

I've cut tons of BEST keys from A2 depth keys with a standard HPC duplicator. They've all worked fine, but yes, you really need to calibrate your machine before you begin, and tip gauge your keys very carefully every time. It's a pain, but they will work fine if you are patient and careful. If you're still having trouble finding depth keys for SFIC/BEST, I would try CLKSuppies.com or Tim Monte (He's the eBay seller with the "BEST IC CORES-DONE TO YOUR SPECS" listing). CLKSupplies only offers A2, but Tim Monte can cut the A4 depth keys. Both sellers are about the same price I believe.

[MatrixBlackRock]

I would try CLKSuppies.com or Tim Monte (He's the eBay seller with the "BEST IC CORES-DONE TO YOUR SPECS" listing). CLKSupplies only offers A2, but Tim Monte can cut the A4 depth keys. Both sellers are about the same price I believe.

Mr. Monte is a stand up guy and knows Best, he has originated a few dozen cores with keys for me and all where perfect in operation.

Wayne