Depth keys (didnt know where to put this one)

[cledry]

Neither looks particular good but I would say the one on the left.

The left one is what?

code key

[tomasfuk]

... My HPC machines all produce a cleaner cut than do any of our duplicators, no matter how slow we go or how many times we go over the key....

I'll show you why I am so skeptic to such general rule.
In the picture below you can see 4 keys. From bottom to top:
1) code cut key for a master keyed system, 2005, http://www.renesancecz.cz, cutting machine unknown
2) code cut key for a master keyed system, 2014, http://www.kareco.cz (mechanical code cutter)
3) code cut key, 2015, http://www.locksystems.cz (digital CNC cutting machine)
I was personally present at cuttings # 2 and 3. Cutting # 2 performed a graduated engineer.
4) copy of a key, done by myself on my mechanical key duplicator. The pattern for copying I created by fine hand filing of a key similar to #3 (which was produced the same day on the same machine) just to reduce the striations.

I hope my copy (the topmost one) looks best of them

and in the full resolution: http://i59.tinypic.com/2qxlq1g.jpg

[tomasfuk]

Neither looks particular good but I would say the one on the left.

The left one is what?

code key

Bingo!

[cledry]

Yes, your key looks the best of the 4. You would have fooled me with that example. That has not been my experience in general practice though.

[tomasfuk]

Yes, your key looks the best of the 4. You would have fooled me with that example. That has not been my experience in general practice though.

Thanks.
I agree with you that in general the code cut keys look better than copied keys. Reasons for that are many - the code cutters are a better quality machines in general. They are more expensive, thus the locksmith uses the duplicator for most keys, reserving the code cutter for necessary uses. The duplicators are being used till they work somehow. The copying must decrease the key quality in principal.. But the quality ranges of code cut and copied keys are overlapping, and you can say for sure what is the origin if you see an extremely good or an extremely bad key only.

[tomasfuk]

Just another example.
The top (left) key is a factory cut key. The right (bottom) one is a copy of it, made in the lock manufacturer's branch in Prague. I think they are of the same quality regarding smoothness, striations... The main difference is that the copy is cut deeper by 0.10-0.12 mm , thus I suppose that it cannot be a code cut key. I cannot believe they could have an intentionally so wrong (dis)adjusted code cutting machine there.
The lock/keys manufacturer is a brand, member of the EVVA Group. Unfortunately I could not see the cutting machine at work.


Full resolution picture again: http://i59.tinypic.com/3322rd1.jpg

[GWiens2001]

Many (most?) of the code cutters, such as the HPC Blitz, still need to be calibrated when you get it. Also, the bitting is cut manually using a wheel. That can affect the depth of cut, too.

Gordon

[tomasfuk]

You are right, but the copied key from my previous post was not the case. I could not see the machine but I have heard it. It was a continuous cutting without interruptions caused by manual depth selecting. They made 5 copies for me and all of them look the same and have the same depth deviation.
Ivan

[UnlockingBoredom]

I have tried and tried but cannot get this Rytan to cut closer then .001, I will keep trying to get it prefect but if the keys work with it that way I just may leave it...

[blue60]

I have tried and tried but cannot get this Rytan to cut closer then .001, I will keep trying to get it prefect but if the keys work with it that way I just may leave it...

I just happened to be doing some reading on key machines and (at least for Ilco duplicators) a key being out by +/-0.002" is "within spec"

my duplicator is set so a 4 or 5th gen key will cut +0.002 I ran out of blanks getting it this consistent (in total I ended up cutting 10 or so keys to get it that tight)

[tomasfuk]

I have tried and tried but cannot get this Rytan to cut closer then .001, I will keep trying to get it prefect but if the keys work with it that way I just may leave it...

...my duplicator is set so a 4 or 5th gen key will cut +0.002 I ran out of blanks getting it this consistent (in total I ended up cutting 10 or so keys to get it that tight)

How do you measure the cut depth?
As the cut is not flat but a cylindrical valley, axis of which is positioned in the middle for medium-depth cuts only but at one or the opposite key edge for deep or shallow cuts, the calipers measure the height in a different place than where the pin is in contact with the key. The difference can be something like 0.0015" at cuts of extreme depths (supposing 2 mm wide key, 80 mm cutter diameter, 12 cm between cutter axis and clamps carriage leading rod).

[UnlockingBoredom]

I have tried and tried but cannot get this Rytan to cut closer then .001, I will keep trying to get it prefect but if the keys work with it that way I just may leave it...

...my duplicator is set so a 4 or 5th gen key will cut +0.002 I ran out of blanks getting it this consistent (in total I ended up cutting 10 or so keys to get it that tight)

How do you measure the cut depth?
As the cut is not flat but a cylindrical valley, axis of which is positioned in the middle for medium-depth cuts only but at one or the opposite key edge for deep or shallow cuts, the calipers measure the height in a different place than where the pin is in contact with the key. The difference can be something like 0.0015" at cuts of extreme depths (supposing 2 mm wide key, 80 mm cutter diameter, 12 cm between cutter axis and clamps carriage leading rod).

I understand that the cutting wheel is cylindrical and leaves a valley in the center of the cut but it does not affect measuring in the slightest with my calipers because both keys were cut on machines with the same size wheel and will both have the same depth valley in the center of the cut. So when I measure with calipers on the "high" sides on both keys I am getting a measurement of .001 higher on my key then on the key cut from my fiends duplicator which I have measured and it is right on the money when duplicating keys.

I will keep trying to adjust this thing and get it so that when I duplicate a key it is within .0005 of the original

[tomasfuk]

...I understand that the cutting wheel is cylindrical and leaves a valley in the center...

It's in the center at medium-depth cuts only.
I attach 2 pictures showing 2 principal sources of inexact copying here, causing deviations in range of tens of µm. When you copy a key made on another machine (with somehow different geometry), both of them apply.

(the cutter is much bigger in fact but the small one shows the principle better)

[tomasfuk]

Thus, now I'll describe how I manage this problem if I need really precise, exact keys.

1) At first I cut the whole key in the standard clamps (the shallower ones, i.e., A).
2) After that I re-cut the shallower positions (bitting 0..4 from the range 0..9) in the deeper clamps (i.e., C). No danger that the cutter hits the clamps - it has a protection.
3) If the key has some positions with bitting 0 or 1, I look if the cut lays in the top, i.e., if it touches the top jaw there. If this happens (let's say in 25% cases only), I return the keys (tip to the left, bow to the right) and re-cut those 0/1 cuts with keys in the deeper clamps C.
4) If the key has some positions with bitting 8 or 9, I look if the cut lays in the bottom, i.e., if it touches the bottom jaw there. If this happens (let's say in 25% cases again), I put the keys into the shallower clamps A again but with 0,5 mm thick shim below (i.e., between the key and the bottom jaw) and re-cut those 8/9 cuts.

After this procedure I have a key copy with height deviation -10 +20 µm throughout all the cuts and key profile.
I then take a very very fine file and grind the cuts where necessary, up to 10 µm off, checking the result with calipers. The result is ± 10 µm tolerance.

And finally, I check the correct height with the key inserted into the plug and with key pins loaded there. Again with calipers.

You may say this procedure is slow and complicated. Yes, it is, but the result pays for it.

[UnlockingBoredom]

Wow, that is way more then I am willing to do when cutting keys.... I am not a locksmith so I wont be doing keys for other people and when I get a new lock I make a copy of the key and put the original key away just in case I need to make another.

Every key I have made on my little MicroMetric and now the Rytan works flawlessly in the locks I have made keys for.
My keys may not be within the tolerances you are getting but they work for me...

It seems like your local locksmith made some horrible keys for you to push you to such measures... I see you are in Prague, so you have much better locks then I am used to... I make keys for Kwikset and Schlage.